Here are the questions for the second section of the book 'After and Before.' As always, if you wish to add your own questions on this section please do.
1. In 'Vacant' we read of how the families learned of the deaths. Which of these stories affected you personally and why?
2. The Harrises and Klebolds both released statements. Analyze the rhetoric of these statements. [pg 107]
3. National polls taken after the attack listed a variety of causes contributing to the attack including violent movies, video games, Goth culture, lax gun laws, bullies, Satan and the parents. 85% of the public in a Gallup poll blamed the parents. What is your opinion of the list and the blaming of the parents?
4. In 'First Memories' we learn of Eric's fascination with fire and fireworks, guns, video games and the isolation of rural areas. Were there warning signs in any of this or was this normal behavior? Do you think that the disruptions of being a 'military brat' and his father's rigorous discipline were contributing factors to his eventual actions? Why would these things affect him when they do not affect other children?
5. At the beginning of 'Rush to Closure' we read that the Denver Post printed the headline 'Healing Begins' 36 hours after the attack. What effect do you think that this had? Do you think it hindered the healing of people who were still processing the attack? How much control did the media have over public perception of events?
6. Another story the media ran with was the heroic version of Danny Rorhbough. Why was this story so widely accepted by its various audiences?
7. In his online fantasies Eric describes a world where nothing happens and all humans have been eliminated. He said that he in fact wishes he could act on these fantasies. Does you see signs of psychopathology in this? Do you think many teens have nihilistic or misanthropic fantasies of this sort? Would you advise someone communicating online with a person who revealed these fantasies to alert someon in authority?
8. In 'Help Is On The Way' we read of the last hours of Dave Sander's life. Personally, this was a difficult chapter to read. How did Cullen's use of rhetoric effect you?
9. In 'Media Crime' Cullen takes on the myths of Columbine. Analyze one of the myths he takes on and explain why you think that myth was perpetuated as well as believed.
10. What was the effect of the media's disregard for being selective in the people that were considered 'witnesses' at Columbine?
11. Why do you think that the rumor about Eric and Dylan being gay spread in Clement Park? Was this a way for the survivors to create psychological distance from the killers? Why do you think the media failed to show the same restraint they showed with regard to gay rumors in describing the killers as Goths? Were you surprised to read that although they are often stigmatized and bullied in schools that Goths do not react violently?
12. Explain your reaction to some of the ways the police force "blew it" in regards to early warning signs?
13. Eric's journal said 'I hate the fucking world.' What does this say about his motivations?
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3. I personally think the list is useless. It is basically meaningless and probably succeeded in putting ideas in peoples' heads. The parents cannot be ultimately blamed because they didn't shoot the people themselves. They were as surprised as the rest of the general public.
ReplyDelete4. I found this behavior completely normal for a suburban teenager. Suburban areas are notoriously lacking in excitement, so it is no surprise that he was intrigued by guns and fireworks. As for the fascination of the "isolation of rural areas," I think it made Eric seem actually more sane. Some people enjoy the solitude of less-populated areas. That isn't an unusual occurrence. I don't think that his father's disciplinary actions affected his later decision to attack the school. However, there is a chance that since Eric grew up moving from place to place, he never formed lasting friendships. This may have led him to believe that a given individual isn't worth much, which might explain his lack of remorse for killing 13 people.
6. The story was accepted because the public wanted a romantic, tragic story about a kid who gave his life to save others. They didn't want to believe that a normal teenager just picked him off with a gun. The media attempted to make Danny seem less vulnerable.
8. Dave's death being chopped up was so painful. I honestly wanted to know that he died so I could just get it over with already. I felt terrible even reading about his suffering and how he struggled for hours before bleeding to death.
9. The theory that the attackers were homosexual goths was a popular myth because everyone wanted to believe that the attackers were fundamentally different from them. One of the main reasons that it was perpetuated was that it allowed the public to have a concrete subject to blame.
3. About the list of blames, I feel that no matter what one blames, whatever happened happened. Probably because this event did not actually affect, I do not feel as most blamers do. As a culture, we believe that there is a reason for everything. The people have forgotten that somethings just happen for no reason at all. And of course they would blame the parents, after all they raised the child, but people forget that children hide things from their parents all the time. How can one blame someone for having no knowledge of their child's misdeeds?
ReplyDelete4. In hindsight, of course there were warning signs, but unless a child acts, how can one tell if they mean what they act? Eric's father's habits have a little effect, that being allowance. He allowed his son to continue on, even though he himself truly believed his son was innocent. His upbringing affected him differently because he is different; no one reacts the same as another.
6. Because the people love heroic stories. It gives them a peace of mind knowing that this person died to save others. They don't want to accept that Danny was just killed for no reason at all, or if any, just being at the wrong place at the wrong time.
9. How can one not believe the TCM myth? The killers were wearing trench coats after all. It just made simple sense. There happened to be a bunch of people in a group wearing trench coats called the Trench Coat Mafia, and then a mass murder occurs from people wearing trench coats. Sadly, people like explanations that are simple to understand, and not necessarily true.
12. The news perpetuating erroneous information along with the students providing false claims, deeply affected the police rescue efforts. The students made it seem like the entire school was rigged with bombs and full of killers. But the police themselves also blew it, since they didn't just think that they could handle what was going on inside.
Tali #3 - I agree, to be technical, the parents cannot be blamed for what their children decided, by themselves, to do. However, even though you describe the list as useless, the people see it with relief and closure.
ReplyDeleteTali #6 - I also agree here. It's bad that Danny died, but when he died to save others, it seems a lot better.
Tali #8 - Yeah, Cullen's appeal to pathos in that chapter, as well as his tragically ironic chapter title, "Help is on the Way," provide that effect. Help was on the way for 3 hours, and then he still was left there to die; it brings pity and yet anger in the reader.
Raj #3 - I could not agree more, the people need a reason so that they can "avoid" something similar. The parents cannot be blamed, at least not entirely. Their children had a deep elaborate plan, crossing many sources, whether they be guns or bombs or just people to avoid.
Raj #6 - The people always need a hero, and a student hero sounds even better to one's ears and heart. It helps them cope knowing that at least one person died for a specific, however wrong, reason.
5. It doesn’t surprise me that it had a negative effect on the still mourning people. 36 hours, that’s just a day and a half! Undeniably not enough time for parents who just hours ago found out their child has dead, yet did not know how they died. They would have felt even more hurt or stuck in their emotional whirlwind, thinking “The world has moved on. So soon?! My son/daughter DIED!! How heartless are they to say healing has begun already!” Yes, the media did this with good intentions, but that didn’t help them heal. It seems almost like putting salt in the wound. The media had complete control over the media. It wasn’t the witnesses calling the media, saying what was going on, what the killers looked like, what their social status was. It was the other way around. Most of the time people believe what’s on the news, not knowing if it’s the whole truth or not, right?
ReplyDelete6. It is possible to think that people believed such a story to give themselves a little mental relief from all the negative stories that were going around. In a time of such utter chaos and death for teenagers, it would be easy to accept the slightest positive story, like that one boy died saving others from the gunshots. Think about it, if something like this mass murder happened at Wheeler, wouldn’t you like to believe that some died righteously than just because they were running away and he or she was one of the unlucky students to be in the back of the crowd and shot?
Tali #9- I agree. They wanted a scapegoat that made sense to them, which would be someone different that them. Why? Because people generally fear things that are different because they don't, or can't understand it.
ReplyDeleteTobs #4- Good point. Someone could just talk and talk and talk about things that could be awful, had they occurred, but never actually go through with it. No one can be sure what a person truly thinks until they do something.
Tali #3- Yeah, and one can only responsible for one's actions when they are old enough to understand right from wrong. No one else can be blamed for the murders but the killers themselves because THEY committed the crime, no one else. People just want a scapegoat and since Eric and Dylan are dead, they need to find another one, because no one would know what to do without one.
8. The suspense nearly killed me! There was a huge use of pathos and imagery here. I was so caught up in the imagery and diction that described the moments so amazingly, that I forgot he didn’t survive and was on the edge of my seat the whole time. I felt like I was actually there, in the room witnessing everything, kneeling beside Dave and constantly changing my looking from him and then to the door, waiting for the paramedics or some form of help to arrive. All I can think of now as I reflect is, “Wow.” Then when the SWAT team arrived and they couldn’t take Dave with them or leave someone there! UH!
ReplyDelete(3) Personally, I believe the parents, lax gun laws, and violent games and movies all contributed, but, overall, had little influences over the outcome of Columbine. The parents should not be ultimately blamed, as Eric and Dylan becoming killers, was effected by numerous things, one largely being the theory that Eric was a psychopath, which led to him manipulating many people, including his parents, and also that the attack would have never occurred without Eric, since he planned majority of it.
ReplyDelete(4) I think that these were warning signs to Eric’s parents, where they should have been worried about his troubles with the law, school, and other students and their parents. On the whole, Eric’s parents, since Eric was highly manipulative, were distracted by his progress in school and his other scheming strategies, due to his psychopathy. I believe majority of parents would have acted the same, since believing your own child is a killer is near impossible.
(6) During horrible events, while hearing about all appalling things that occurred, people often look for something positive. Generally, this occurs in all negative events, so when Danny’s story was heard it was immediately largely accepted. Overall, people rather accept a story where someone died heroically, than for no particular reason.
(8) Dave Cullen carrying out Dave Sanders’ death in great detail made a large impact, especially knowing that he could have been saved. His death was also difficult, since he also conveyed his family and their struggle. Reading about his death stood out from all the other victims who were murdered at Columbine, due to this.
(9) TCM was, generally, believed because it provided a reason to the attack, and also the most believable. While few students gestured at the idea, the media took hold of it, and spread it everywhere, even though there was no evidence to the reasoning; Only the rumor that Eric and Dylan were wearing trench coats, which was proven to not be true at all.
Tali #4_ About the lasting relationships, I think that theory could be quite possible. It sounds logical that someone without such deep ties to people wouldn't have much emotion when someone he was acquainted with, or not at all for the matter, died. Plus, would it also be logical, with him not having many good friends in the past, for him to want to manipulate anyone who he let get close to him, like Dylan? Dylan seems to be constantly portrayed like Perry was in In Cold Blood: the one seeking acceptance and willing to do anything to get it.
ReplyDeleteTobs #9- Yeah. It brings the "If it looks like and duck, quacks like a duck, it must be a duck!" saying to mind. It seems like a very simple and reasonable conclusion to come to with such evidence, except them not being involved with the TCM at all. It's easier to accept simple reasons behind things.
3. I think people just wanted something to blame so that they could feel better about the entire situation. I know plenty of people who play violent video games and watch violent movies that aren't trying to blow up Wheeler. Eric was simply a psychopath, and he was going to act on his desires to kill one way or the other. I believe the parents are without blame in this situation. People come to a certain age where they must take responsibilities for their actions, not their parents. If my 17 year old behind decides to shoot up WHS or rob a bank, I can't say it was my mom's fault for letting me watch "Takers". I'm old enough to know right from wrong and so were they. The only excuse in this situation would be mental illness, and who can we blame for that?
ReplyDelete4. One of my close friends just so happens to be a pyromaniac, and that doesn't make her a serial killer/psychopath. Some members of our APLANG class enjoy exploding things (*cough*Suraj*cough*), and I don't think that they're planning any elaborate plan to kill people at Wheeler. The point is, I don't think Eric's fascination with fire was abnormal. As much as we hate to believe it Antisocial Personality Disorder/Psychopathy happens, and whether his father chose to indulge him or not, wouldn't necessarily have changed the way he acted.
8. Sanders was one of the most developed characters in the opening of the book, so the details of his death were very difficult to read. Cullen described Sanders in so much detail that you felt like you were losing your own father when you read this chapter, and I felt like his death was completely avoidable. I honestly teared up when I read that the SWAT team made the students leave him on the ground. If I were the Sanders family, I'm not sure if I would be so understanding.
10. The media's negligence only added to all of the chaos surrounding the shootings, and it seemed to hamper the investigation. Misinformation spread like wild fire, and the students even began to buy into some of the rumors.
12. This is just another example of why we shouldn't trust the police (<--I agree, that line may be a tad bit dramatic). Reading about the cover up and the police officers' choice to disregard all of the complaints that were filed against Eric made me want to vomit. I would hate to be one of the families scarred by the shooting. It just makes you think, could this all have been avoided if they were simply doing their jobs?
Tali # 8 I agree that Dave struggling for hours also largely impacted me, making his death stand out over the rest. Also, since Dave was not killed immediately and had ample time to be saved also affected me.
ReplyDeleteShelby # 5 I agree that 36 hours had a huge negative effect on the people affected by the attack, especially since many people never fully recovered, recovered at all, or took months or years to recover, which is not close to 36 hourds at all.
Suraj # 6 - I agree that the audience accepted that idea because they needed a hero, and also it allowed there to be some good resulting during the horrible attack.
Suraj&Tobi # 3 I also agree since that there was no specific person or things to be blamed, especially the parents. Overall, it was the combination of many events and things.
Tali #9 - I agree that it gave people the first concrete subject to blame, since it was the first and most believable rumor to spread amongst the witnesses and other people effected.
@Suraj - You have a good point with the mix of nature vs. nurture. The braided rope analogy works really well; it's truly sad that we'll never understand what every cause was. On the anecdote of Michael Moore and the Lockheed Rep, I think Moore was taking that influence way out of context. Just because the parents work on nuclear missiles it does not mean that the kid makes the connection between making missiles and shooting schoolmates.
ReplyDelete@Shelby - The story would be heartwarming if it were verifiable and true. The fact that the false story was popularized and presented to the public is disrespectful to Daniel because it falsifies his death.
@Tali: On the topic of blaming the "homosexual goth" culture, I really feel that blame was finding a scapegoat outside of the traditional society. It makes sense that they would blame two groups who are stigmatized from society (not that it's right.)
@Tobi I'd say the police are to blame by ignoring potential warning signs from the killers. But still, in a situation like that where the police are uncertain about all the facts, where every detail is the difference between life and death, I do understand the difficulty the police had. And not that this is an excuse, but the police in general were unprepared for a random attack of wanton violence at this scale.
@Alexandra The SWAT team leaving Dave behind is depressing. But we can't place all the blame on the police. There were several instances where they did screw up, but on that day the SWAT were genuinely trying to do the best they could. Cullen mentions that they were "seething" that they couldn't get in and start evacuating people. In that chaotic situation, I'd say that really nothing went right.
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteTali #9- I completely agree; scapegoating makes everybody feel better. As a society, we've been trained to ostracize and distrust anything different, so making gays and goths out to be the enemy isn't very shocking. People needed to take out their anger on somebody, and what would be a better target then homosexual goths?
ReplyDeleteShelby #5- The more I read this book, the more I wonder if "the Media" was sincere in all of its actions. Does printing the headline 'Healing Begins' 36 hours after the attack actually help the shaken community, or does it cause a surge in the readership of a certain newspaper? The Columbine shooting was every news outlet's dream because our society loves sensation whether it be good or bad.
Tobs #4- So true; I also believe that parents/people in general see what they want to see and believe what they want to believe. Some instances in the book made me feel like Eric's father simply chose to turn a blind eye to his son's poor behavior, and who could blame him? Nobody wants to think that their kid's a screw up, especially when he believed that Eric had so much potential.
4. I like Tali's point about #4, suburbia must have been maddening for somebody like Eric. With his inherent anger and frustration at the world, fireworks must have served as a distraction for him.
ReplyDelete12. Alexandra makes a good point with number 12 in her statement that the police did do a rather poor job with their response.
5. Though healing is a long and tedious process, as Suraj points out, the media made a horrible mistake by attempting to declare healing had started.
6. Shelby has a very good point, it is indeed human nature to attempt to cast somebody as a hero to make ourselves feel better about their death.
4. Tobi's comment in his response to #4 is a good point, though there are many warning signs that gave away Eric's eventual psychopathy, nearly all people demonstrate some warning signs at various points in their life.
Alexandra #3: I agree with you, once you reach a certain age, you must take responsibility for your actions, and Eric was way past that age.
ReplyDeleteShelby #8: I felt like i was in the room too, and when SWAT couldn't take Dave with them, i felt like i was going to die; it was so sad!
Kelsea #4: I do not believe that Eric getting in trouble at school, or even with the law suggested that he was a mass murderer; plenty of people get into trouble, but don't shot up their schools. Also, the fact that he was doing so well in school could also have been misleading.
Kelsea #8: Cullen did develop Dave's story more than the rest and his inclusion of his family life made it all the more difficult to read about him going through all of that pain.
Tali #3: I agree the list is useless and the parent's cannot be blamed, they did not kill those kids, their children did.
Suraj #7: I agree with you, I myself would not have reported Eric; like you said, Eric said that he was not going to kill everyone; he thought that they would take of it on their own.
Suraj #4- I totally agree. I'm pretty sure there's some quote that says "An idle mind is the devil's workshop/playground" or something.
ReplyDeleteKelsea #9- The trench coat rumor was true to some extent because Eric and Dylan were wearing trench coats at one point, and that is what caused the confusion. However, I do agree that the whole TCM thing was believed because people needed something to explain away the attacks. Another explanation was sub-par journalism; journalists simply wanted to get stories out the fastest without doing proper research.
3. I think that people want to believe the fault lies in the parents. AS they were warned, now that their children are gone people are going to hate them, the parents, because they have nothing else to hate. Humans want a specific thing to pass their anger off on to. Violent movies, video games, bullies, those were all objects, they couldn't directly share their anger to them. They could;t ban violent movies or video games, but they could "shun" the parents. Also if the blame falls on the parents it allows other parents to look at that and say their kids couldn't, wouldn't do the same things because they are "better" parents.
ReplyDelete4. I think that if you look at all of Eric's fascinations as a whole then yes, it may lead you to think that he may have showed signs of troubled behavior. But fact of the matter is, you don't sit there an analyze your kids fascinations, mainly because each fascination has a logical reasoning to it. Boys, and men have the tendency to be fascinated by fire, fireworks explosions, anything that blows up, makes loud noise, or is dangerous. Which includes guns. Video games? What teenage boy do you know that does not play video games. For that matter, a lot of girls do as well! And enjoying being alone in rural areas is something that a lot of people, like myself, enjoy. The peace, quiet, and serenity.Being in a military family may have led Eric down a tougher path psychologically but in the end there are so many military families and not all of their children are going out and attempting mass murder.
5. For anyone to say that 36 hours after such a horrific attack in a small town that healing has begun, that is ludicrous. People who were still trying to cope with the initial shock, only a day and a half later, would be pressured by those headlines. Feeling that they need to move on so quickly. Victims whom have just faced something of such magnitude need time to process what happened so that they can move on and begin to heal. The media had 100 percent of the control on how the public perceived the events. They had the power to make anyone believe whatever they wanted.
8. Cullen did a fantastic job in his style of writing. He presented the material, he didn't sugar-coat it or use so much imagery that it seemed more like a fiction piece. The chapter "Help Is On The Way" was a tough chapter. Knowing that someone could have been saved, but was left to bleed to death is a big pill to swallow. Knowing how slow SWAT and police actually took any action is scary. And the lies that the police department told the media makes me question the validity of anything I hear. Cullen made it such a powerful chapter by using precise diction.
13. Eric's talk of extinction was nerve-racking, but it explains something to the audience. Eric didn't want to kill a few people, he wanted to kill everyone. I don't think that Eric's plan was to commit suicide, I believe he would have rather lived on to kill more people. Not in order to say he killed people, or for the glory or love of it, but just to kill off the population. He says "I hate the fucking world." This explains that Eric was not looking to kill specific people, he was shooting to kill whom ever he could. This eliminates people claims that he was killing only the jocks, the blacks, or the bullies. He was killing anyone, and everyone that he could.
Kelsea #3 I agree, if Eric was a psychopath it was not his parents or his upbringing, it was his head, genetics, things he could not control. Although some things may have progressed his mental illness it ultimately was not caused by the parents, and they should not be blamed. Neither should fireworks, video games, etc.
ReplyDeleteShleby F #8)I totally agree, it was intense, although I hadn't forgotten he would die, I thought they would at least get him out of the building. There were so many questions flying through my head as I read. Where were Eric and Dylan? Where was the SWAT team? And WHO kept telling them 10 more minutes???? I was getting annoyed with the police, for not responding but at the same time understood the inability for them to get to Dave soon enough.
Tobs #6) This is a good perspective on this, people wanted someone to have faith in, some light at the end of this long, dark tunnel and they could find that in a heroic effort.
Suraj #5) It is almost scary how much we rely on media after seeing how much mis-information can be given about such a serious matter. The families certainly did not need the extra pressure, and simply needed to be left alone, to heal and grasp what had happened to them.
Tali #9) This is so true, that they wanted something to be different to know they were "safe". Their kids, or family, or friends could never do such a thing if they weren't gay or goth. Being 'abnormal' provided a barrier between what happened there and the possibility of it happening again, somewhere else close to home.
3. I believe that the list was just another excuse for the public to not fully put the blame on what seemed like innocent kids. However, I also believe that the list is not important at all because all it does is give people misleading information. The blaming of the parents was very surprising to me because I believe the parents can not be blamed at all; many teenagers hide things from their parents and the kids seemed completely fine anyway.
ReplyDelete4. I feel as though Eric's fascination with things that some may have considered "dangerous" is perfectly normal for a teenager. I can say, as a teenager myself, that things like video games are a lot more fun when there is nothing much to do. However, I do believe it was a little strange that Eric was intrigued by rural areas, because as parents, I believe the Harris' should have sensed something sketchy about his privacy. His dad's strict rules may also have affected his future by making him want to do all the things his father wouldn't allow him to do. It may have been that mentally Eric was slightly unstable that he did what he did while others were not as affected.
6. The heroic story of Danny Rohrbough, "the boy who held the door open", was very widely accepted due to the fact that it was the only glimpse of hope and courage that people could see during such a tragic time. Also, it was accepted because people would rather hear about a heroic figure who helped others, rather then a boy who was shot and bled to death after 2 days of laying on the sidewalk.
12. The police "blew it" after hearing some early warning signs because they were hearing warnings from untrustworthy sources that had told them exaggerated stories. This made it sound as though the school was absolutely full of shooters and bombs and guns, causing the police to hesitate and move slowly, rather then urgently search for the killers and any survivors.
5. Although the newspaper article about "Healing Begins" was meant primarily for emotional support and to allow the healing process to begin, it did just the opposite. The very premature headline caused anger amidst the families of the survivors because they believed that it was still much too early for them to simply forget about their murdered loved ones, causing it to hinder their ability to heal. Of course, this also shows that the media can control our thoughts and beliefs; the media places an image into our heads about the killers, gives us false images of hope, and even tells us when we should begin to heal.
3) the list of 'what/who to blame' was just a way to keeo the responsibilit off of everyone involved. By blaming violent video ames or music, it takes a personal feeling of responsibility away. By blaming the parents, t's a way of saying to the "You creaed this problem, so it's your fault that this happened." I dont agree with the list at all, everyone is exposed to violent media, and not all pople kill. I don' think it was necessarily the parents' fault either, the boys had everyone fooled.
ReplyDelete1) I think the reaction o Lisa Sanders to Dve's death was the one that affected me the most.It was obvious ho much she loved him, and it made her physically ill when the news that he was gone was finally confirmed. Thoughout the event, she refused to give up hpe, but when it was finally confirmed, there was nothing left of her. It touched me to see such love, and made me think about how lucky I am to have all my loved ones with me.
6) I think people reacted to the story of Dann's heroism because that made it easier to cope with the tragedy. Just like people liked to believe that the boys ere outcasts and different from them, they also liked to hold on to heric actions. It's less appauling to think that Danny was shot for nothing, but that maybe he was shot for fighting back. The spirit of a hero is the bright light that hone through the darkness, despite whether or not it was true.
Suraj #5- I definitely agree that that statement made the people affected by the incident feel rushed. In addition, I did not realize the stated “invisible grasp” until you mentioned it. It really shows how much of an influence the media really has. They literally had the power to sway the public any way they wanted to.
ReplyDeleteTobs #9- I certainly believe that the TCM myth was a very believable one, and I agree that it seemed sensical enough to be widely accepted. People definitely wanted a simple solution and someone to blame and the TCM was a very easy target given the rumor.
Alexandra #12- I literally could not agree more. I remember reading about certain files “disappearing for the first time” and thinking, “Wait, so first they’re disappearing, and now you’re insinuating that they’re going to disappear again?” When did corruption come back into style again? I definitely missed that memo.
Shelby #5- I really like how you put yourself in parent’s perspective with this question, as it helped me do the same. It was very difficult to understand why the media acted this way once I gained this point of view. I noticed that I felt angered by the insensitivity of it all, and I would definitely agree that the headline was like putting salt in the wound.
Suraj #6- The public definitely sought a hero. It seemed like the media’s portrayal of Danny as one showed that they had good intentions (sort of). They wanted to give the public a hero, but they went about it the wrong way (misinforming the public).
oh wow i just read over my last comment and saw all the typos. oops, old laptop i guess the keys are sticky...
ReplyDelete4) As I think I said in the last set of questions, I don't think that being interested in guns and fireworks is the strange part of Eric's behavior. It seems perfectly normal to me for teenage boys (and even some girls) to have fun messing around blowing things up and shooting things. The out-of-the-ordinary part when it comes to Eric was that he didn't just want to have target competitions, he wanted to use this fascination to kill people. I don't think that his upbringing or his dad really had much to do with his messed up thinking either. Being moved around a lot would've effected his ability to create sound realtionships and distanced him from others.
9) The myth that was most ridiculous to me was the idea that the boys were gay goths that hated the world, and that's why they killed the people. People believed this myth even though there is absolutely no correlation between the two because it gave them a different 'other' to blame. By perpetuating this myth, people didn't have to examine their own fault in the situaion and could just blame the boys and the way they were.
Tali-#8 I totally agree that the hardest part of this chapter was how long it took to get through the story. I know it sounds bad but I was really just wanting him to pass on already so that he could be out of his misery and I wouldn't have to keep reading about his pain.
ReplyDeleteAlex-#10 I think you make an excellent point by saying that so many rumors were spread by the media that people didn't know what to believe. Even students that were there started believing these false ideas because everyone else did so willingly without proof.
Arvin-#12 I totally agree that the police were kinda off track when deciding what to belive about the shooting. However, feel like because there was so much confusion, they had to be really cautious as opposed to just discarding what the witnesses said they saw.
Tali #3 I agree with you on this one. The list didn't really have a true purpose and only misled the citizens of the US. Also, i agree about the parents because it can be clearly seen that they were not aware, you have a valid point.
ReplyDeleteTobi #6 I agree with you; I also believe that people really were looking for something to keep their minds off of the evil and tragic moments of the Columbine shootings.
reebs-#13 I agree with the point you make about Eric not discriminating among the people he killed because he hated the whole 'fucking world.' However, I don't know that he didn't want to kill himself, as he was planning to all along; he didn't care about college or anything. I think he saw this as his one shot, and he was going to die and take as many people as he could with him.
ReplyDeleteShelby F-#5 I totally agree with you. I think that the media, by putting out that headline so soon after the attack showed how hearltess the news is, moving from one tragedy to the next. I mean, I can say that it would be pretty upsetting to see news stories about healing beginning in Japan right now or anytime soon. It would be like instead of giving time to mourn the great loss, just moving on, belittling the sorrow of the families affected.
Tali 6- I agree but I don’t think it made him seem less vulnerable I think it just made him seem more of a hero nothing more. I don’t think making him a hero made him vulnerable just more than a normal guy caught in the crossfire.
ReplyDeleteTobs 3- I don’t understand your comment entirely but I think you’re saying that the parents weren’t all the reason they were killers. If so, I agree. Especially with kids hiding stuff from their parents, I think its more of their friends fault for their mischievous ways.
Tobs 4- I don’t think there were any warning signs at all. They were normal teenagers that loved what normal teenagers love to do. Nothing could have signaled police to arrest them or be suspicious of them.
Kelsea 6- I agree completely, society tries to make something good of a heroic event to please everyone. For this, they decided to make a hero out of Danny instead of just a normal victim to the murderers.
Alexandra 10- I agree the media did cause problems, but it led people to the event. It caused more investigations and eventually did lead to a better understanding of these shootings. They were unhelpful at the start, but I don’t think they prohibited investigation entirely, just it made the investigations more in depth and thorough.
Suraj #4 I agree with you about the guns, fireworks, etc. part, however I feel as though being in a rural environment far away from anyone else is a little weird, and that the parents should have at least figured out what was going on there before they allowed their child to make regular visits.
ReplyDeleteKelsea #8 Dave Sanders' death also stood out to me too; Cullen used Sanders' death as a huge appeal to pathos and I sensed that in your answer.
Tobi #12 I fully agree with you on this one. The warnings the police had received may have affected their ability to save lives that day, and many people could have bled out in that time.
#3 This list isn’t very valid, because although it was a legitimate poll, the parents were influenced heavily by the media and made decisions out of anger and confusion. Surely their thoughts would have been different had the poll been taken months or years later.
ReplyDelete#4 Every boy has interest in fire at some point, it’s natural. Name one male high school student that doesn’t enjoy a good shoot ‘em up video game? Exactly, that’s impossible. To an extent, this makes Eric a fairly normal teenager. He, arguably, take it too far with his pipe bomb “fun.” This to me would be a clear warning sign if he had not been around these types of things, as he was a “military brat”.
#6 The media decided to come up with their own story for poor Danny. Yes, indeed, he did breathe his final breath in the doorway, but it was not because he was a hero. Everyone wants to believe the best about somebody, and will usually choose to over the fact even though they know it is false. When the media portrayed Danny as a hero, people wanted to believe it, so they did.
#8 To me, this was the most emotional section so far. Cullen clearly believed that Sanders was a true life saver. He helped so many kids escape. It was definitely the imagery used to describe his bloody body dragging itself across the floor that really got to me.
#13 A lot of kids are over dramatic. Teenagers talk about this kind of stuff all of the time, so it really depends on each instance. If the kid has had a history with depression, it must be a warning sign, but Eric seemed to be a pretty normal kid, so in that case you really can’t tell.
-Austin Noyes
1.The chapter “Vacant” shows human emotion to the finest. Each one of the relatives took the news in a different way; each showed an all-too-human reaction that corresponded with the stages of grief. Perhaps the most emotional was Brian Rohrbough’s story. No one had told him. He found out the hard way. The relationship between the father and son is summarized in one sentence. “Danny was all Brian had.” Not only did Danny lose his life, Brian, in effect, lost his. This was the most emotional reaction to me. As Brian rushed to the school and demanded his son’s body, I was moved by his willpower to take action and not to feel sorry for his own self.
ReplyDelete2.The statements from the parents were that of people who just didn’t understand why. They suffered as much as any other parents of victims. They lost their children too. In the Klebolds’ statement, they relate themselves with the other sufferers. In the Harrises’, they were briefer and more to the point. Both families didn’t understand why their children would shoot their classmates, and through an objective standpoint, an audience can easily see that. But to a family who has been torn apart by this shooting, they would not be as understanding. Both families released statements to pacify what they knew would come next. Hatred. Both parents also include religious ideals to again appeal for pity from the general community.
3.The list is just regular human thought. If someone does something, it is usually because of the influence of another. Who has the most influence on two high school boys? Their parents. The list just shows the train of regular human thought. It doesn’t strive for accuracy. It strives for popularity.
6.Everyone wants a hero. In such a tragedy, people want to think some good came out of it. It’s so much nicer to think that this boy died saving others, than just dying. It is a natural instinct of humans called coping. Coping mechanisms usually help humans through tragedies. It is nice to hear that on that day a hero was born.
9.TCM were the outcasts of Columbine High School. It is easy to blame the outcast minority for the blame. When the Trech Coat Mafia was created, it was a fashion statement. The name however suggests something cynical. The public readily believed that this “mafia” was a group of “weird” teenagers that had a bunch of pent-up rage. Because Eric and Dylan wore trench coats, blame was automatically put on outcasts: gays, Goths, etc.
my first comment didn't show up..i thought it did. i'm soooo lucky i had it saved though
ReplyDeleteSuraj #3
When you live in isolated places in the middle of nowhere, there is not much to do but make explosions and shoot things and go outside and get into trouble, it becomes habit, escaping from boredom.
that's true I never thought about it that way.
shelby f #6
Think about it, if something like this mass murder happened at Wheeler, wouldn’t you like to believe that some died righteously than just because they were running away and he or she was one of the unlucky students to be in the back of the crowd and shot?
yes i would rather think that but in reality we'd have to accept that sometimes people die without being a hero. they just die
arvin #3: I believe that the list was just another excuse for the public to not fully put the blame on what seemed like innocent kids.
I think it was more that the kids dead so they could not blame them not that they didn't want to blame innocent kids.
arvin #4: His dad's strict rules may also have affected his future by making him want to do all the things his father wouldn't allow him to do.
His father did not really have strict rules it was just the way he disciplined his son that was different.
alexandra:As much as we hate to believe it Antisocial Personality Disorder/Psychopathy happens, and whether his father chose to indulge him or not, wouldn't necessarily have changed the way he acted.
i agree that even if his father acted differently in some ways it doesn't mean he wouldn't have become a murderer
1. The story of how Brian found out that his son Danny died in the attack affected me the most. There are so many things about his story that made it even sadder than the others. Brian did not know about what was happening at Columbine until Wednesday morning. He never had the hours fraught with worry that the other parents did, but he never had the time to prepare himself either. It is difficult to imagine how shocked he must have been when he first heard the news. For him, everything was fine one moment, and then his life was changed forever in the next. After hearing the news from a friend, Brian then sees his son’s body publicly displayed, lying dejected in the snow in a picture with a dozen other survivors. Then Cullen tells us how close the two were, making it all the more unbearable to hear about, but then we hear even more: Danny’s body was not moved from the sidewalk for twenty-eight hours. There was nothing anyone could do to save most of the other victims, but a person would think that after such a tragedy occurred, human life would at least be treated with some amount of respect. Yet Danny’s body was treated with no such respect. It seems as if the officer could have at least called for a bomb squad to scan and crime scene investigators to process that area first so his body could be moved, or, failing this, to at least erect a block so the victim’s body could not be seen so easily.
ReplyDelete2. Both of the statements seem like statements and not things real people would say. Instead of being full of the emotion of parents who just lost their sons, the statements are plain and straightforward. The Harrises and Klebolds seem as if they are both just trying not to anger people further for things that were never their fault in the first place. The grammar is straightforward and the diction is trite. Both statements use words like “senseless” and “tragedy” to express that they are victims also, although only the Klebolds outright say so. The Harrises instead say, “Please say prayers for everyone touched by these terrible events.” The Harrises were “touched by these terrible events,” but they do not say so directly.
ReplyDelete3. Of the things mentioned on this last, the parents and bullies were the only people. It is easier to directly blame a person for something than it is to blame a thing, and most high schoolers come across bullies and do not commit mass murder. Everything else on this list affects a wide variety of people. Parent answering the questionnaire, in particular, might have subconsciously seen that their child could be affected by the other things, so bad parenting must have caused Columbine. Blaming the raising of the children would have allowed people to see Columbine as an isolated incident. It is also interesting that the student’s individual psyches were not on the list.
Reba and Kelbie #13:
ReplyDelete“I don't think that Eric's plan was to commit suicide, I believe he would have rather lived on to kill more people. Not in order to say he killed people, or for the glory or love of it, but just to kill off the population.”
“However, I don't know that he didn't want to kill himself, as he was planning to all along; he didn't care about college or anything. I think he saw this as his one shot, and he was going to die and take as many people as he could with him.”
I think that Eric was planning on killing himself because he hated other people so much. Cullen mentions that Eric thought humanity would end up causing its own extinction anyways. Eric probably just did not want to wait around for this and whatever other calamities, in his eyes, those around him would make. He simply could not stand the world any longer and wished to finally live out his childhood military fantasies, just this time with a bunch of teenagers rather than insurgents. I also find it rather ironic that, because he hated everyone, he killed as many people as he could, with his best friend helping. Did he not hate Dylan too? I think that Dylan was just a follower who supported Eric’s belief in his own greatness.
“The police "blew it" after hearing some early warning signs because they were hearing warnings from untrustworthy sources that had told them exaggerated stories. This made it sound as though the school was absolutely full of shooters and bombs and guns, causing the police to hesitate and move slowly, rather then urgently search for the killers and any survivors.”
ReplyDeleteIf this were the case then it would not be the police officer’s fault for not responding quickly enough. It might be true that some of the children were too scared to know the truth of what they saw, but the police do not hear about a gunman in a school and respond any less urgently than they possibly could. The sheer number of calls they received would likely contribute more to a slowed reaction time and show the police that the children and teacher’s stories were actually true. Confusion likely caused law enforcement some hesitance.
Kelbie #3:
ReplyDelete“The list of 'what/who to blame' was just a way to keep the responsibility off of everyone involved. By blaming violent video games or music, it takes a personal feeling of responsibility away. By blaming the parents, it's a way of saying to the "You created this problem, so it's your fault that this happened." I don’t agree with the list at all, everyone is exposed to violent media, and not all people kill. I don't think it was necessarily the parents' fault either, the boys had everyone fooled.”
I see your point that the list would have helped take away some of the responsibility of those involved, but blaming something like videogames would have made some people feel more guilty. I think that blaming these things was a way to believe that something like Columbine could not easily happen again.
Toby #9:
ReplyDelete“How can one not believe the TCM myth? The killers were wearing trench coats after all. It just made simple sense. There happened to be a bunch of people in a group wearing trench coats called the Trench Coat Mafia, and then a mass murder occurs from people wearing trench coats. Sadly, people like explanations that are simple to understand, and not necessarily true.”
True, this myth had more proof than some of the others, but yet the Trench Coat Mafia was really a rather small group that seemed to be large because it was identified by a single item of clothing. I think that one reason this myth was widely believed is because it is a rather novel idea, and, as long as it is somewhat realistic, people like to believe in the unusual.
Shelby F
ReplyDelete“The suspense nearly killed me! There was a huge use of pathos and imagery here. I was so caught up in the imagery and diction that described the moments so amazingly, that I forgot he didn’t survive and was on the edge of my seat the whole time. I felt like I was actually there, in the room witnessing everything, kneeling beside Dave and constantly changing my looking from him and then to the door, waiting for the paramedics or some form of help to arrive. All I can think of now as I reflect is, “Wow.” Then when the SWAT team arrived and they couldn’t take Dave with them or leave someone there! UH!”
I remembered the whole time that he ended up dying, and this made the chapter even more emotional for me. Cullen does manage to create such unbelievable suspense and anger at Dave’s death. The descriptions are so personal that you truly do feel as if you are really there, watching Dave die. This chapter also creates even more pity for the living witnesses because you get an idea of what they went through.
6. The audiences would wish to comfort themselves by seeing the good in people. They would want to know that for every villain there is a hero who will save them. It would not make what happened at Columbine any less tragic, quite the opposite in fact, but believing that story would allow people to believe that humanity was still good.
ReplyDelete5. I think that this headline likely made the victims feel as if other people were downplaying the importance of what happened at Columbine and acting as if things would get better for those affected quickly. Imagine the parents of a victim reading the headline. Healing has not nearly begun for them. They have likely not even buried their child yet. How would it feel to see a newspaper heading pronouncing that healing had already begun?...
ReplyDelete...It would feel like a stab to the heart, as if others did not care about your child enough to mourn him for more than thirty-six hours. The media had a huge amount of control over the public’s perception of the attack. Most people in Denver would not know personally about the parent’s sorrow. They would learn their information solely from the media and believe that healing truly might have already begun.
ReplyDelete