1. How do you feel about the tone of the chapter 'Jesus Jesus Jesus'? Is it suitably respectful to the religious beliefs of the people in Columbine in their reaction to the attacks? Is it analytical enough of the beliefs?
2. What do you think of the beliefs portrayed in 'Jesus Jesus Jesus'? What do you make of the phenomenon surrounding Cassie Bernall? Do you think that people in the community created their own saint to make something good out of a horrible incident?
3. At the beginning of 'Good-bye' we learn more about Dylan's belief system and Eric's expressions of hate on his website. Given the disparity between their beliefs do they seem to be an unlikely team to you? What do you think was the 'glue' that held their relationship together, given the differences? As Eric expressed hate for so many people and Fuselier saw that as contempt do you think that Eric felt contempt for Dylan?
4. Eric's website (complete with bomb instructions) was reported to the police on August 7, 1997. Does this seem like a place where Eric's eventual plans could have been stopped? Why do you think that this violent information seems to have been ignored and wasn't followed up on? Do you feel like the police should have been held responsible for not following through more thoroughly?
5. 'Good-bye' has the first musing of Fuselier regarding Dylan and Eric's sanity. Given what you read here do you feel that they were sane? Do you think Cullen has presented enough information about psychopathy at this point in the book to allow the audience to make a decision regarding whether or not Eric is a psychopath?
6. What did you make of the story of the 15 crosses? Were you surprised by the reaction of the community (including the expressions of forgiveness)? What did you think of Brian Rohrbough's reaction? The carpenter who put up the crosses turned out to be a con man. Do you think that the type of exploitation he represents is typical in this type of tragedy - or is that just a cynical viewpoint? Does it even matter what the carpenter's intentions were if people found comfort from the crosses?
7. Eric and Dylan became enthralled with films like 'Natural Born Killers' and 'Lost Highway' and musicians like Nine Inch Nails. Do you think society commits an injustice to filmmakers and musicians when we tie them to the actions of deranged killers? Do you think there is any justification in being concerned with the effect of violent films and music on teens - and/or is this something that requires the attention of a parent on a case by case basis?
8. Many people, including Michael Moore in 'Bowling for Columbine,' thought the NRA should have rescheduled their conference in Denver. What do you think?
9. Even while he was entering diversion Eric had a website up which threatened to kill people. Dylan brought it to the attention of Brooks Brown. What was Dylan's motivation in revealing the website to Brooks?
10. Do you think that things have changed since Columbine regarding online threats - or do you think that this sort of thing could be posted on a website now without consequences? (Think about the recent cyber-bullying suicides like Tyler Clementi and Phoebe Prince reported in the media).
11. What do you think of Eric's comments with regard to God and people in 'The Book of God.' Do you think that he really saw himself as being superior to other humans? Do you think that this led him to be able to justify his acts - or is that over thinking this whole thing because we look for things that would give justification because we would need it - but someone like Eric didn't?
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3. At the beginning of 'Good-bye' we learn more about Dylan's belief system and Eric's expressions of hate on his website. Given the disparity between their beliefs do they seem to be an unlikely team to you? What do you think was the 'glue' that held their relationship together, given the differences? As Eric expressed hate for so many people and Fuselier saw that as contempt do you think that Eric felt contempt for Dylan?
ReplyDeleteDylan and Eric do not seem to be such an unlikely team. They both “liked to pick on younger kids” (9), which in my opinion is related to their hatred for other people they consider to be inferior. Even Dylan described humans as zombies, but initially Dylan didn’t want to hurt us. Also, since Dylan was suicidal (which I find weird, for a Christian to be suicidal) and already wanted to kill Devon for breaking up his friendship with Zack, Eric’s idea to kill lots of people and then himself didn’t shock Dylan as it would any of us. Eric probably did not feel contempt for Dylan, since Dylan was smart like Eric and also hated inferiors with a passion.
4. Eric's website (complete with bomb instructions) was reported to the police on August 7, 1997. Does this seem like a place where Eric's eventual plans could have been stopped? Why do you think that this violent information seems to have been ignored and wasn't followed up on? Do you feel like the police should have been held responsible for not following through more thoroughly?
ReplyDeleteIf there was any place where Eric’s plans could have been discovered and stopped, this was it. I’m not sure why the plans were ignored, since the police actually got a report and filed it. Maybe if Mark Burgess had mentioned the pipe bombs, he would have attracted some attention and kept the Columbine massacre from happening. In retrospect, the police should have taken more responsibility and addressed the pipe bombs and raised some more concerns with Eric’s parents in order to stop the mass murder from going as planned. Bureaucracy seems to have been a problem here; the police found out about the pipe bombs and didn’t do a thing about it except file a report.
5. 'Good-bye' has the first musing of Fuselier regarding Dylan and Eric's sanity. Given what you read here do you feel that they were sane? Do you think Cullen has presented enough information about psychopathy at this point in the book to allow the audience to make a decision regarding whether or not Eric is a psychopath?
ReplyDeleteDave Cullen leads the audience to the conclusion that Eric was a psychopath and Dylan was an angry depressive who would not ordinarily have killed others, although he might have killed himself. In “Rebels,” way back in Part I, Cullen mentions that Eric was “a little control freak. He gauged his moves and determined just how much he could get away with. He could suck up like crazy to make things go his way” (9). This sounds like exactly the manipulator that Cullen later describes as being a psychopath: “Psychopaths appear charming and likable, but it’s an act. They are coldhearted manipulators who will do anything for their own gain” (187). Dylan, on the other hand, seems to have been heading toward suicide, but Eric’s plans might have turned his anger outward and caused him to want to go along with Eric, kill others, and then kill himself.
2. What do you think of the beliefs portrayed in 'Jesus Jesus Jesus'? What do you
ReplyDeletemake of the phenomenon surrounding Cassie Bernall? Do you think that people in
the community created their own saint to make something good out of a horrible
incident?
‘Jesus Jesus Jesus’ presents one belief in particular that piques my interest: Pastor
Kristen says, “Pack that arc with as many people as possible” (178). I find that the
church was correct in welcoming the multitudes, but needed to make sure their
motives were correct. Saving souls for a tally on the chalkboard subtracts meaning;
sincerity is vital. Cassie’s Bernall’s story was an inspiration, but it was used in part
as a guilt trip, saying Cassie had been ready, are you ready? The community did
the same thing as with Danny Rohrbrough’s death – tried to add meaning. It helped
some cope, and it was a shame that it turned out never to have occurred.
4. Eric's website (complete with bomb instructions) was reported to the police on
ReplyDeleteAugust 7, 1997. Does this seem like a place where Eric's eventual plans could have
been stopped? Why do you think that this violent information seems to have been
ignored and wasn't followed up on? Do you feel like the police should have been
held responsible for not following through more thoroughly?
Had the police taken the situation more seriously, Eric could have been stopped. I
think the police viewed the one reporting it, Judy Brown, as an overreacting mother
that was a nuisance. Her continued badgering of the law made her fear of Eric
seem like more of a personal issue, hence the lackadaisical police response. It was
justified.
5. 'Good-bye' has the first musing of Fuselier regarding Dylan and Eric's sanity.
ReplyDeleteGiven what you read here do you feel that they were sane? Do you think Cullen has
presented enough information about psychopathy at this point in the book to allow
the audience to make a decision regarding whether or not Eric is a psychopath?
Cullen certainly guides the reader down the path of thinking that Eric was, in fact, a
psychopath. He provides peeks into the boys’ journals, but a lot of his own opinion
seeps out in this chapter. I personally think that no, there was nothing in their lives
setting them far enough apart from other teenagers for such an incredibly out of
the ordinary action to take place- countless people deal with depression, anger
suicide, and do not conduct a massacre. They weren’t insane, they just dealt with it
differently.
6. What did you make of the story of the 15 crosses? Were you surprised by the reaction of the community (including the expressions of forgiveness)? What did you think of Brian Rohrbough's reaction? The carpenter who put up the crosses turned out to be a con man. Do you think that the type of exploitation he represents is typical in this type of tragedy - or is that just a cynical viewpoint? Does it even matter what the carpenter's intentions were if people found comfort from the crosses?
ReplyDeleteAt first, I accepted the story as sweet - it did not occur to me that anybody would oppose the crosses of the murderers being there with the others. I expected forgiveness, and was a bit taken aback by all of the hate that the 'graves' of Dylan and Eric received. Danny's dad's reaction, once accepted, I could understand: his son was shot in the face for no reason by these 'maniacs,' hence they weren't worthy to be represented by crosses next to Danny's. The man who planted them didn't matter at all. Forget about him. So many people received comfort, visited the crosses and left a token or a few words, and in turn received closure, peace. Their existence was impactful, albeit short-lived.
7. Eric and Dylan became enthralled with films like 'Natural Born Killers' and 'Lost Highway' and musicians like Nine Inch Nails. Do you think society commits an injustice to filmmakers and musicians when we tie them to the actions of deranged killers? Do you think there is any justification in being concerned with the effect of violent films and music on teens - and/or is this something that requires the attention of a parent on a case by case basis?
ReplyDeleteWe discussed today in class that by the time an American child reaches the age of 5, he or she has already been exposed to over 5,000 displays of violence. Sure, people learn from what they see. Sure, filmakers and musicians have a huge impact on people's lives, opinions, even choices. But denying people the right of expressing themselves violently or exposing themselves to such things would wreak more havoc than the aforestated exposure does. Parents cannot take the responsibility of monitoring everything their child is exposed to; the poison offered by the media is a huge concern. It is each individual's responsibility, though, to monitor what he or she takes in, and to react responsibly.
Stephen you said...
ReplyDeleteDylan and Eric do not seem to be such an unlikely team. They both “liked to pick on younger kids” (9), which in my opinion is related to their hatred for other people they consider to be inferior. Even Dylan described humans as zombies, but initially Dylan didn’t want to hurt us. Also, since Dylan was suicidal (which I find weird, for a Christian to be suicidal) and already wanted to kill Devon for breaking up his friendship with Zack, Eric’s idea to kill lots of people and then himself didn’t shock Dylan as it would any of us. Eric probably did not feel contempt for Dylan, since Dylan was smart like Eric and also hated inferiors with a passion.
I agree with your point that they do not seem to be an unlikely team (consider the cliche "opposites attract"- it applies perfectly). Dylan, though, might have a bit of contempt bottled up inside. He wrote, "i feel so lonely, w/o a friend" (185) implying that valued no one, not even Eric.
Stephen you said...
ReplyDeleteIf there was any place where Eric’s plans could have been discovered and stopped, this was it. I’m not sure why the plans were ignored, since the police actually got a report and filed it. Maybe if Mark Burgess had mentioned the pipe bombs, he would have attracted some attention and kept the Columbine massacre from happening. In retrospect, the police should have taken more responsibility and addressed the pipe bombs and raised some more concerns with Eric’s parents in order to stop the mass murder from going as planned. Bureaucracy seems to have been a problem here; the police found out about the pipe bombs and didn’t do a thing about it except file a report.
You're right that it could have been avoided, and this makes me mad! Provided, the Browns overreacted to practically everything Eric did. Still, though, the police were at fault in not taking action about it.
6. What did you make of the story of the 15 crosses? Were you surprised by the reaction of the community (including the expressions of forgiveness)? What did you think of Brian Rohrbough's reaction? The carpenter who put up the crosses turned out to be a con man. Do you think that the type of exploitation he represents is typical in this type of tragedy - or is that just a cynical viewpoint? Does it even matter what the carpenter's intentions were if people found comfort from the crosses?
ReplyDeleteSeveral things surprised me about the fifteen crosses. I found it odd that they put up crosses for the killers as well as the victims; this makes Eric and Dylan seem like victims too, when Eric especially was certainly not a victim. The forgiveness thing surprised me even more, that anyone within a week would have even talked about forgiving Eric and Dylan for their crime. I think this is just another example of the Columbine community’s faith. What didn’t come as a surprise was that the faith gave way to anger. Brian’s angry, unforgiving reaction I think was typical for someone who has lost his son to murder; in fact, I would have expected more parents to react this way. I think the carpenter’s intentions do matter because he made himself out to be this kind person who was trying to help the Columbine community to recover and then broke his promise by making new crosses for the killers, just for the extra money. I’m astonished that so few people remember the carpenter as a con man, since he basically preyed on the community’s faith.
Stephen you said...
ReplyDeleteDave Cullen leads the audience to the conclusion that Eric was a psychopath and Dylan was an angry depressive who would not ordinarily have killed others, although he might have killed himself. In “Rebels,” way back in Part I, Cullen mentions that Eric was “a little control freak. He gauged his moves and determined just how much he could get away with. He could suck up like crazy to make things go his way” (9). This sounds like exactly the manipulator that Cullen later describes as being a psychopath: “Psychopaths appear charming and likable, but it’s an act. They are coldhearted manipulators who will do anything for their own gain” (187). Dylan, on the other hand, seems to have been heading toward suicide, but Eric’s plans might have turned his anger outward and caused him to want to go along with Eric, kill others, and then kill himself.
While I disagree about the psychopathy of Eric, and think he just handled his emotions/situation immaturely, I support your claims about Dylan. I think that yes, Eric was the major reason for Dylan's choice of homicide.
Stephen you said...
ReplyDeleteSeveral things surprised me about the fifteen crosses. I found it odd that they put up crosses for the killers as well as the victims; this makes Eric and Dylan seem like victims too, when Eric especially was certainly not a victim. The forgiveness thing surprised me even more, that anyone within a week would have even talked about forgiving Eric and Dylan for their crime. I think this is just another example of the Columbine community’s faith. What didn’t come as a surprise was that the faith gave way to anger. Brian’s angry, unforgiving reaction I think was typical for someone who has lost his son to murder; in fact, I would have expected more parents to react this way. I think the carpenter’s intentions do matter because he made himself out to be this kind person who was trying to help the Columbine community to recover and then broke his promise by making new crosses for the killers, just for the extra money. I’m astonished that so few people remember the carpenter as a con man, since he basically preyed on the community’s faith.
We share different views about the significance of the con man, but the more important issue is the part of your analysis I support: "this is an example of the Columbine community's faith." That never occured to me! It is, most definitely, which is why I was surprised by the LACK of forgiveness on the part of many, namely the woman who wrote "Evil Bastard" on Dylan's cross - she wasn't even affiliated! To the portion that chose to forgave, I pay my respect. I cannot say the same for the others.
Sam, you said
ReplyDelete"At first, I accepted the story as sweet - it did not occur to me that anybody would oppose the crosses of the murderers being there with the others. I expected forgiveness, and was a bit taken aback by all of the hate that the 'graves' of Dylan and Eric received. Danny's dad's reaction, once accepted, I could understand: his son was shot in the face for no reason by these 'maniacs,' hence they weren't worthy to be represented by crosses next to Danny's. The man who planted them didn't matter at all. Forget about him. So many people received comfort, visited the crosses and left a token or a few words, and in turn received closure, peace. Their existence was impactful, albeit short-lived."
So you expected forgiveness? I took it as a surprise. It seemed like there should have been so many hard feelings since many of these people lost a child in the massacre. I believe that, in somecases, evil, in an attempt to cause harm to others, "accidentally" causes good, and the carpenter is an example of this. He did the crosses for personal gain, but they resulted in the peace of others. Maybe you're right about his intentions not mattering here, since the public only remembered the good that came out of the crosses.
Sam, you said
ReplyDelete"Had the police taken the situation more seriously, Eric could have been stopped. I think the police viewed the one reporting it, Judy Brown, as an overreacting mother that was a nuisance. Her continued badgering of the law made her fear of Eric seem like more of a personal issue, hence the lackadaisical police response. It was justified."
I agree with you that Eric could have been stopped, but I didn't see Judy's overreaction to Eric's actions as being significant here. As a matter of fact, it didn't even cross my mind. The book says that it was "apparently Randy Brown," not Judy, who called the police, but that's beside the point. Really, it shouldn't matter who actually placed the call once a deputy reads the Web pages and neglects to mention the most disturbing part - the pipe bombs.
4. Eric's website (complete with bomb instructions) was reported to the police on August 7, 1997. Does this seem like a place where Eric's eventual plans could have been stopped? Why do you think that this violent information seems to have been ignored and wasn't followed up on? Do you feel like the police should have been held responsible for not following through more thoroughly?
ReplyDeleteI think that this was the first place where people acted irresponsibly in respect to the Columbine Massacre. The police was presented with a kid who had a history of petty crime, violence towards his friends, and now reported death threats. The Browns worked very hard to get Eric behind bars or at least very far away from them. Still, they did absolutely nothing. It got pushed to the back of the drawer and forgotten. Cullen conjectures that it might have been because the detective in charge went on a vacation, but I wonder if Eric’s father had somehow gotten word of the investigation and made sure that it wasn’t followed through with. The entire tragedy could have been prevented if only the police had paid more attention to what was right in front of their face. Not only that, but they tried to bury their incompetence. The authorities were persecuting others for hiding information, but the police themselves withheld their own irresponsibility in regards to the murders. I think that they should have been held responsible for their actions. Maybe not a criminal trial, but there at least should have been a rehashing of the staff and their processes. It seems to me that this police institution is corrupt with politics and needs a serious revision.
5. 'Good-bye' has the first musing of Fuselier regarding Dylan and Eric's sanity. Given what you read here do you feel that they were sane? Do you think Cullen has presented enough information about psychopathy at this point in the book to allow the audience to make a decision regarding whether or not Eric is a psychopath?
ReplyDeleteI feel like Eric and Dylan had some serious mental problems. Eric obviously didn’t have any respect for life, and he seemed to express pure hatred for seemingly inconsequential things. What did the W.B. do that made him hat them so much? Eric displays an interesting dichotomy between his thoughts and actions. In his actions his is completely cool and controlled, but his thoughts are passionate and he has zero control over them. Dylan also seems “insane”, but not psychopathic. He views himself as superior but thinks of his “inferiors” fondly. He just seems clinically depressed at himself. It’s hard to imagine at first how he managed to turn his rage at himself into murderous intentions. Cullen presents some information about psychopaths to his audience, but I feel like my outside information about them helps me to decide that Eric is psychopathic more than any information he presented in the book.
6. What did you make of the story of the 15 crosses? Were you surprised by the reaction of the community (including the expressions of forgiveness)? What did you think of Brian Rohrbough's reaction? The carpenter who put up the crosses turned out to be a con man. Do you think that the type of exploitation he represents is typical in this type of tragedy - or is that just a cynical viewpoint? Does it even matter what the carpenter's intentions were if people found comfort from the crosses?
ReplyDeleteI actually wasn’t too surprised at the expressions of forgiveness in the story. One very remarkable thing about very religious communities is that they are very good at accepting tragedy and forgiving criminals. I feel that Danny was kind of hypocritical, if justified. He was right that the carpenter was a conman and had immoral intentions, but he himself wielded the power of his son’s death. “Brian took charge of his tragedy that day. He discovered the power of being Danny Rohrbough’s dad.” He was using his son’s death to further his own agenda of getting the cross up. Was he all that much better than the carpenter? One interesting thing I noticed about this section was that Cullen never named the carpenter. I feel that Cullen explains this in the last paragraph:
“The world forgot the carpenter. Few had noted his name. most never knew what a huckster he was, or the lies he told, or the pain he inflicted. But they remember his crosses fondly. They recall the comfort that they found.” Cullen himself didn’t want to spread the carpenter’s fame; the man had been very immoral in exploiting the tragedy. However, Cullen still recognized the good that the crosses brought to the community as well. This type of exploitation is typical in tragedies, but it doesn’t change the fact that bad intentions can come out to bring good results.
8. Many people, including Michael Moore in 'Bowling for Columbine,' thought the NRA should have rescheduled their conference in Denver. What do you think?
ReplyDeleteI can see the NRA’s viewpoint in this actually. They don’t want to be victimized for the tragedy, and they still have the right to grieve for the tragedy, but I don’t think it was a good decision to have the conference. I don’t understand why after a horrible violent gun tragedy they can have a pro-gun rally. If they had really wanted to help they could have had a rally about gun safety and educating children not to take out their violent thoughts through guns. There were a lot of alternatives they could have chosen while still not compromising their point. I feel that the NRA’s blatant disregard for the feelings of the victims and the families of the victims was just irresponsible, if not cruel.
Jason you said...
ReplyDelete"...but I wonder if Eric’s father had somehow gotten word of the investigation and made sure that it wasn’t followed through with."
From what Cullen includes about Wayne Harris, I agree with your conjecture to the fullest. It sounds just like Eric's dad to try and prevent an investigation, and though jumping to conclusions is frowned upon, I can't help but wonder the same thing. Excellent point.
11. What do you think of Eric's comments with regard to God and people in 'The Book of God.' Do you think that he really saw himself as being superior to other humans? Do you think that this led him to be able to justify his acts - or is that over thinking this whole thing because we look for things that would give justification because we would need it - but someone like Eric didn't?
ReplyDeleteI think that it’s easy when you’re angry to say “Oh [they] are so stupid.” It is much easier to think of other people as inferior than to recognize that you are wrong and irresponsible. I feel like Eric convinced himself to feel superior to other people so that he didn’t have to feel responsible for his actions; he didn’t have to accept that he was wrong. Society says he’s wrong? Well they’re all a bunch of stupid shit-head automatons that program everyone to be inferior. I do think that he used this as justification. I think that people always need a justification for their actions. They always need to think of themselves as right. No one ever does anything because they think it’s the wrong thing to do. Many people commit crimes knowing that they’re wrong, but they still have their own justifications for why it is okay for them to do. I do think that Eric needs to think of people as inferiors so that he can go through with his plans of mass murder. I don’t think that he needs as much justification as a normal person would, but he still needs to convince himself of his own inherent justness.
Stephen said...
ReplyDelete"...I think the carpenter’s intentions do matter because he made himself out to be this kind person who was trying to help the Columbine community to recover and then broke his promise by making new crosses for the killers, just for the extra money..."
I don't really agree with this statement. First off, I think that the carpenter was taking advantage of the situation from the very beginning, not just when he kept on making crosses. He made the crosses for fame, not out of compassion. If I understand correctly, you think that his negative intentions do count. I disagree; I feel that we live in a world where intentions and results can be two very different things. Bad people can do good things and good people can do bad things. In this case the carpenter did a good thing for bad reasons, and many people benefited from it (except for poor Brian). I feel like we should just remember the crosses for the good they did and forget about the carpenter- he doesn't deserve to be remembered.
sammie k. said...
ReplyDelete"We discussed today in class that by the time an American child reaches the age of 5, he or she has already been exposed to over 5,000 displays of violence. Sure, people learn from what they see. Sure, filmakers and musicians have a huge impact on people's lives, opinions, even choices. But denying people the right of expressing themselves violently or exposing themselves to such things would wreak more havoc than the aforestated exposure does. Parents cannot take the responsibility of monitoring everything their child is exposed to; the poison offered by the media is a huge concern. It is each individual's responsibility, though, to monitor what he or she takes in, and to react responsibly."
I like this- you make a good point. It's easy to blame multiple different sources, but what I liked best was you talking about the suppression of individual rights. Lots of people talk about how much better off we'd be if we got rid of our violent culture, but if the government tried to monitor what we showed on tv, people would riot in the streets. If you have an issue with violent culture, just don't expose your kids to it. It's very easy to raise your kids away from TV, and don't let them play the violent video games.
stephen said...
ReplyDelete"Dylan and Eric do not seem to be such an unlikely team. They both “liked to pick on younger kids” (9), which in my opinion is related to their hatred for other people they consider to be inferior. Even Dylan described humans as zombies, but initially Dylan didn’t want to hurt us. Also, since Dylan was suicidal (which I find weird, for a Christian to be suicidal) and already wanted to kill Devon for breaking up his friendship with Zack, Eric’s idea to kill lots of people and then himself didn’t shock Dylan as it would any of us. Eric probably did not feel contempt for Dylan, since Dylan was smart like Eric and also hated inferiors with a passion. "
I agree that Dylan and Eric don't seem like such an unlikely team. After all, it seems like the trend to have a leader and a follower, and they both fill their roles well. However, I feel like Eric might have been contemptuous of Eric. After all, he dreams of a world without ANYONE. He wants the complete extinction of the human race. I feel like he uses Dylan as a means to and end. It's tragic that Dylan thinks that Eric is his only friend but Eric is probably just using him.
sammie k you said...
ReplyDelete"Had the police taken the situation more seriously, Eric could have been stopped. I
think the police viewed the one reporting it, Judy Brown, as an overreacting mother that was a nuisance. Her continued badgering of the law made her fear of Eric seem like more of a personal issue, hence the lackadaisical police response. It was justified."
I don't agree that the police were justified in dismissing the investigation. We can't hold them responsible for everything, but I feel like they could have at the least followed due process. They should have at least investigated the claims- Judy Brown had concrete proof that Eric threatened her son's life- no less that three different times on one website! It was irresponsible for them to not at least have a formal investigation, even if they felt that she was an overbearing mother. I feel like this particular police department has had way too many examples of corruption and bad management.
Stephen you said...
ReplyDelete"Dave Cullen leads the audience to the conclusion that Eric was a psychopath and Dylan was an angry depressive who would not ordinarily have killed others, although he might have killed himself. In “Rebels,” way back in Part I, Cullen mentions that Eric was “a little control freak. He gauged his moves and determined just how much he could get away with. He could suck up like crazy to make things go his way” (9). This sounds like exactly the manipulator that Cullen later describes as being a psychopath: “Psychopaths appear charming and likable, but it’s an act. They are coldhearted manipulators who will do anything for their own gain” (187). Dylan, on the other hand, seems to have been heading toward suicide, but Eric’s plans might have turned his anger outward and caused him to want to go along with Eric, kill others, and then kill himself."
I like you how answered this with specific evidence from the text. I admit that I made my conclusions mainly from personal knowledge. You view Eric as a lot more analytical than I did. I feel like while he was very analytical outwardly- inside he was a mess. He appears psychopathic on the outside- his cool, unphased attitude- but internally he is a wash of anger and rage. It seems to me that psychopaths are internally composed as well, but I could be wrong. Maybe just his external composure and lack of consciousness are what matter in the diagnosis.
11. What do you think of Eric's comments with regard to God and people in 'The Book of God.' Do you think that he really saw himself as being superior to other humans? Do you think that this led him to be able to justify his acts - or is that over thinking this whole thing because we look for things that would give justification because we would need it - but someone like Eric didn't?
ReplyDeleteEric considered himself superior to other humans to the extent that he wished “natural selection” had killed off all of us stupid jerks. He said that we spend our lives “like automatons, following orders rather than realizing our potential” (234). The Columbine murders were his way of trying to help natural selection by killing off inferior human beings. This was probably what allowed him to justify his actions. The fact that he was a psychopath kept him from having any emotional reason to turn back once he had made his plans.
Jason, you said
ReplyDelete"I think that this was the first place where people acted irresponsibly in respect to the Columbine Massacre. The police was presented with a kid who had a history of petty crime, violence towards his friends, and now reported death threats. The Browns worked very hard to get Eric behind bars or at least very far away from them. Still, they did absolutely nothing. It got pushed to the back of the drawer and forgotten. Cullen conjectures that it might have been because the detective in charge went on a vacation, but I wonder if Eric’s father had somehow gotten word of the investigation and made sure that it wasn’t followed through with. The entire tragedy could have been prevented if only the police had paid more attention to what was right in front of their face. Not only that, but they tried to bury their incompetence. The authorities were persecuting others for hiding information, but the police themselves withheld their own irresponsibility in regards to the murders. I think that they should have been held responsible for their actions. Maybe not a criminal trial, but there at least should have been a rehashing of the staff and their processes. It seems to me that this police institution is corrupt with politics and needs a serious revision."
It does seem like the police should have connected the dots and taken notice of the fact that Eric might have been planning murder. Nowadays, countless death threats and a website filled with hate would draw lots of attention and questioning because of the media. Mark Burgess should probably have lost his job for failing to mention the pipe bombs, which would have registered "DANGER WARNING" for any good policeman.
Jason, you said
ReplyDelete"I think that it’s easy when you’re angry to say “Oh [they] are so stupid.” It is much easier to think of other people as inferior than to recognize that you are wrong and irresponsible. I feel like Eric convinced himself to feel superior to other people so that he didn’t have to feel responsible for his actions; he didn’t have to accept that he was wrong. Society says he’s wrong? Well they’re all a bunch of stupid shit-head automatons that program everyone to be inferior. I do think that he used this as justification. I think that people always need a justification for their actions. They always need to think of themselves as right. No one ever does anything because they think it’s the wrong thing to do. Many people commit crimes knowing that they’re wrong, but they still have their own justifications for why it is okay for them to do. I do think that Eric needs to think of people as inferiors so that he can go through with his plans of mass murder. I don’t think that he needs as much justification as a normal person would, but he still needs to convince himself of his own inherent justness."
I do believe that people need justifications for their actions. Even psychopaths will at some point in time question what they're about to do, especially if it's murder, but, using their twisted psychopath reasoning, they'll somehow justify their plans. As far as why Eric thought he was superior, I think that this was part of his mental problem. Eric shows his contempt for humanity both in his private journal and online on a Web page that anyone could see. If it were just about not having to accept that he was wrong, he probably wouldn't have wanted to share his justification with the world, since he wanted to create a scare and keep the massacre plans a secret until the day the plans were to be fulfilled. The hateful language online and in Eric's journal seemed like the ravings of a teenager who was going crazy.
Jason, you said
ReplyDelete"I feel like Eric and Dylan had some serious mental problems. Eric obviously didn’t have any respect for life, and he seemed to express pure hatred for seemingly inconsequential things. What did the W.B. do that made him hat them so much? Eric displays an interesting dichotomy between his thoughts and actions. In his actions his is completely cool and controlled, but his thoughts are passionate and he has zero control over them. Dylan also seems “insane”, but not psychopathic. He views himself as superior but thinks of his “inferiors” fondly. He just seems clinically depressed at himself. It’s hard to imagine at first how he managed to turn his rage at himself into murderous intentions. Cullen presents some information about psychopaths to his audience, but I feel like my outside information about them helps me to decide that Eric is psychopathic more than any information he presented in the book."
Eric does seem like a psychopath. He is manipulative and puts on a show, trying to seem like "the obedient one" (9) to give adults reason to trust him. (I went back to chapter 2 here because it describes Eric and Dylan very well, especially what other people saw of them.) Dylan's depression is probably what caused him to be the "follower," and Eric's lack of emotion while planning and performing the murders enabled him to become the "leader."
1. How do you feel about the tone of the chapter 'Jesus Jesus Jesus'? Is it suitably respectful to the religious beliefs of the people in Columbine in their reaction to the attacks? Is it analytical enough of the beliefs?
ReplyDeleteI feel that the tone of this chapter is very positive towards Jesus. They are optimistic that He will help them in this time of tragedy. I feel like this attitude is mostly respectable to the people who were killed in the shooting.I feel like they are turning to Jesus only in a time of need. Not many are praising Him.
2. What do you think of the beliefs portrayed in 'Jesus Jesus Jesus'? What do you make of the phenomenon surrounding Cassie Bernall? Do you think that people in the community created their own saint to make something good out of a horrible incident?
ReplyDeleteI think the beliefs portrayed in 'Jesus Jesus Jesus' are somewhat not really accurate. I think that they are just going to church because it seems like an escape, but I don't think they are going for Jesus. The phenomenon relating Cassie is amazing. She was the ultimate believer and that, to everyone was shocking. Yes, in some ways I think they created their own saints in order to make a situation that was worse better. When someone went through a tragic accident, some have different ways to deal with it, and in this case, people dealed with it by making saints to heal the pain.
2. What do you think of the beliefs portrayed in 'Jesus Jesus Jesus'? What do you make of the phenomenon surrounding Cassie Bernall? Do you think that people in the community created their own saint to make something good out of a horrible incident?
ReplyDeleteI think that beliefs portrayed are almost "made up". They are only turning to Him to be comforted but they dont exactly have the most faith in Him. Some people, of course, are angry with God for doing this. Cassie seemed to be the only one there who was completely sold out and on fire for God. People were trying anything to make something good out of this horrible tragedy.
3. At the beginning of 'Good-bye' we learn more about Dylan's belief system and Eric's expressions of hate on his website. Given the disparity between their beliefs do they seem to be an unlikely team to you? What do you think was the 'glue' that held their relationship together, given the differences? As Eric expressed hate for so many people and Fuselier saw that as contempt do you think that Eric felt contempt for Dylan?
ReplyDeleteYes, they seem like an unlike pair to me. They tend to not really do the same things and believe the same. Yes, they were bpth depressive, but Eric was on a much deeper level than he was. I think the glue that kept them together was the fact that they were both lonely. They were there for each other, and that is what held them together. Yes, he felt contempt. He saw him and Dylan as actual humans, but I don't think Eric felt enough contempt. He did anything to get himself out of trouble, even if it was to make Dylan take the blame.
3. At the beginning of 'Good-bye' we learn more about Dylan's belief system and Eric's expressions of hate on his website. Given the disparity between their beliefs do they seem to be an unlikely team to you? What do you think was the 'glue' that held their relationship together, given the differences? As Eric expressed hate for so many people and Fuselier saw that as contempt do you think that Eric felt contempt for Dylan?
ReplyDeleteAt first they seem like an unlikely teem because their attitudes come across completely different. What held the relationship together was there determination to follow through with what they have been planning for so long. Eric hated the world, but i feel like he had a little bit more contempt for Dylan. But at the same time, Dylan did seem like just a side-kick.
4. Eric's website (complete with bomb instructions) was reported to the police on August 7, 1997. Does this seem like a place where Eric's eventual plans could have been stopped? Why do you think that this violent information seems to have been ignored and wasn't followed up on? Do you feel like the police should have been held responsible for not following through more thoroughly?
ReplyDeleteYes, it seems like a place where his plans would be stopped. I think it was ignored just because of the fact that people didn't think he would really do what he said he was going to do. I think the police should've taken it more seriously. Yes, they are in blame because if they took the situtation more seriously and actually cared enough to find out more about Eric, the tragedy could've been prevented.
4. Eric's website (complete with bomb instructions) was reported to the police on August 7, 1997. Does this seem like a place where Eric's eventual plans could have been stopped? Why do you think that this violent information seems to have been ignored and wasn't followed up on? Do you feel like the police should have been held responsible for not following through more thoroughly?
ReplyDeleteThese instructions of Eric were found almost two years prior to the shooting. I think this definately could have prevented the shooting or atleast altered Eric's way of thinking if he had gotten help early on. The police should be responsible for not taking more action, but there is no way they could have prevented it 100%.
6. What did you make of the story of the 15 crosses? Were you surprised by the reaction of the community (including the expressions of forgiveness)? What did you think of Brian Rohrbough's reaction? The carpenter who put up the crosses turned out to be a con man. Do you think that the type of exploitation he represents is typical in this type of tragedy - or is that just a cynical viewpoint? Does it even matter what the carpenter's intentions were if people found comfort from the crosses?
ReplyDeleteI think the story of the 15 crosses were powerful. They had a lot of meaning and it was nice for the man to make those crosses. Yes, I was a bit shocked on the reaction of the fcommunity. They were able to forgive so quickly, and that made me a bit surprised. I think it is typical in this type of strategy, unless he does it to be cynical, which would be very disrespectful of the lives lost. No, it doesn't really matter what his intentions were, if people found comfort in them, then his intentions failed.
5. 'Good-bye' has the first musing of Fuselier regarding Dylan and Eric's sanity. Given what you read here do you feel that they were sane? Do you think Cullen has presented enough information about psychopathy at this point in the book to allow the audience to make a decision regarding whether or not Eric is a psychopath?
ReplyDeleteI feel that Dylan was sane, but not Eric. I think Cullen has put enough information about psychopathy in the book for the audience to draw a conclusion about Eric. I definately got the feel that he was for sure a psychopath.
4. Eric's website (complete with bomb instructions) was reported to the police on August 7, 1997. Does this seem like a place where Eric's eventual plans could have been stopped? Why do you think that this violent information seems to have been ignored and wasn't followed up on? Do you feel like the police should have been held responsible for not following through more thoroughly?
ReplyDeleteI feel like society today is used to too many threats of violence, leading to a higher natural tolerance level. For example, Eric's website, which provided information that could have led to an arrest. The police should take complete responsibility for these crimes and should have stopped Eric before Columbine.
9. Even while he was entering diversion Eric had a website up which threatened to kill people. Dylan brought it to the attention of Brooks Brown. What was Dylan's motivation in revealing the website to Brooks?
ReplyDeleteI think Dylan brought it to the attention of Brooks Brown with the intention of letting the police know of the situtation. I think underneath Dylan was scared and didn't want to kill as much as Eric did.
Chanan you said..
ReplyDeleteThese instructions of Eric were found almost two years prior to the shooting. I think this definately could have prevented the shooting or atleast altered Eric's way of thinking if he had gotten help early on. The police should be responsible for not taking more action, but there is no way they could have prevented it 100%.
I agree with you on this. I also think that the shooting could've been prevented. Yes, I also this the police should be responsible because they didn't investigate as much as they should've.
Stephen, you said...
ReplyDeleteEric considered himself superior to other humans to the extent that he wished “natural selection” had killed off all of us stupid jerks. He said that we spend our lives “like automatons, following orders rather than realizing our potential” (234). The Columbine murders were his way of trying to help natural selection by killing off inferior human beings. This was probably what allowed him to justify his actions. The fact that he was a psychopath kept him from having any emotional reason to turn back once he had made his plans.
I completely agree with your poing of him not having any emotions about what he had done. Without that emotion there is no way that he could feel guilty for the murders. He only thought he was helping... which was clearly not the case.
Chanan you said..
ReplyDeleteI feel that Dylan was sane, but not Eric. I think Cullen has put enough information about psychopathy in the book for the audience to draw a conclusion about Eric. I definately got the feel that he was for sure a psychopath.
I totally agree!! I think Dylan was sane enough to realize that what he was doing was wrong but Eric just didn't care. He liked the feeling of wanting to kill, and he also didn't feel anything at all. He was a wonderful liar, and those are all signs of psychopathy.
Stuart, you said...
ReplyDeleteI feel like society today is used to too many threats of violence, leading to a higher natural tolerance level. For example, Eric's website, which provided information that could have led to an arrest. The police should take complete responsibility for these crimes and should have stopped Eric before Columbine.
I didn't really think about the fact that the police ignored it because of all the threats where nothing had happened. I agree with you. Prevention was key. Lives could have been saved and dreams followed through only if Eric was stopped.
10. Do you think that things have changed since Columbine regarding online threats - or do you think that this sort of thing could be posted on a website now without consequences? (Think about the recent cyber-bullying suicides like Tyler Clementi and Phoebe Prince reported in the media).
ReplyDeleteI believe that cyber-bullying has only gotten worse since Columbine. With Facebook and Formspring, words, rather than actions, can spark overreactions. This sort of thing is stroongly looked down upon, but can also be considered a crime. Cyber bullying is no laughing matter.
Sammie K you said...
ReplyDeleteAt first, I accepted the story as sweet - it did not occur to me that anybody would oppose the crosses of the murderers being there with the others. I expected forgiveness, and was a bit taken aback by all of the hate that the 'graves' of Dylan and Eric received. Danny's dad's reaction, once accepted, I could understand: his son was shot in the face for no reason by these 'maniacs,' hence they weren't worthy to be represented by crosses next to Danny's. The man who planted them didn't matter at all. Forget about him. So many people received comfort, visited the crosses and left a token or a few words, and in turn received closure, peace. Their existence was impactful, albeit short-lived.
Yes, I agree with you on this. I was a bit taken aback by the hate the crosses of Eric and Dylan received too. The people that received comfort were the ones that benefitted with the crosses, and the man that built them with wrong intentions didn't matter at all.
Jordanna, you said...
ReplyDeleteI think Dylan brought it to the attention of Brooks Brown with the intention of letting the police know of the situtation. I think underneath Dylan was scared and didn't want to kill as much as Eric did.
You're right! Dylan was a killer, but he was truly terrified. I think he only followed through because of Eric. Dylan only shot three times. The rest was Eric.
Stuart said...
ReplyDeleteI believe that cyber-bullying has only gotten worse since Columbine. With Facebook and Formspring, words, rather than actions, can spark overreactions. This sort of thing is stroongly looked down upon, but can also be considered a crime. Cyber bullying is no laughing matter.
Yes, I agree with you on this. Cyber-bullying is getting worse by the minute. More and more people are releasing their anger onto websites. It is serious!
7. Eric and Dylan became enthralled with films like 'Natural Born Killers' and 'Lost Highway' and musicians like Nine Inch Nails. Do you think society commits an injustice to filmmakers and musicians when we tie them to the actions of deranged killers? Do you think there is any justification in being concerned with the effect of violent films and music on teens - and/or is this something that requires the attention of a parent on a case by case basis?
ReplyDeleteThe values a musicin represents may not always be tied to their music. No musicians sing tunes musing on the possibilty of mass murder. Not even violence. The beats may be violent or loud, but in no way should music spark murderous rage. Movies on the other hand include tons of violence and can be interpreted as contributing to the problems in society today.
Stuart, you said...
ReplyDeleteI believe that cyber-bullying has only gotten worse since Columbine. With Facebook and Formspring, words, rather than actions, can spark overreactions. This sort of thing is stroongly looked down upon, but can also be considered a crime. Cyber bullying is no laughing matter.
I agree! Yes Facebook and other websites are helpul in planning and keeping up with old buddies, but people are abused constantly through them. Some have resulted in suicide. The words that people say can sometimes be much more hurtful than one's actions.
1. How do you feel about the tone of the chapter 'Jesus Jesus Jesus'? Is it suitably respectful to the religious beliefs of the people in Columbine in their reaction to the attacks? Is it analytical enough of the beliefs?
ReplyDeleteThe tone in "Jesus Jesus Jesus" is very positive towards christianity, it is almost congratulatory. I believe that Cassie Bernall did an amazing thing by giving her life for her religion, which is what Dave Cullen is trying to do throughout the chapter. By Cullen adding the chapter, he is definitely respecting the communities religion, by continuosly recognizing her martyr, he respects what went on in the library that day, and shows it by analyzing everyhting that happened during and after that point of time.
Jordanna, you said...
ReplyDeleteI think the story of the 15 crosses were powerful. They had a lot of meaning and it was nice for the man to make those crosses. Yes, I was a bit shocked on the reaction of the fcommunity. They were able to forgive so quickly, and that made me a bit surprised. I think it is typical in this type of strategy, unless he does it to be cynical, which would be very disrespectful of the lives lost. No, it doesn't really matter what his intentions were, if people found comfort in them, then his intentions failed.
I agree with you. His intentions were sarcastic, but I'm sure some comfort was found in them. Although his intentions failed, they still served a purpose.
2. What do you think of the beliefs portrayed in 'Jesus Jesus Jesus'? What do you make of the phenomenon surrounding Cassie Bernall? Do you think that people in the community created their own saint to make something good out of a horrible incident?
ReplyDeleteCullen portrays Cassie's martyr as amazing and heroic. I believe that the martyr was a sign that she did not care whether she was silenced or not, she only cared that her religion would not collapse under the evil pressure of Eric. people talked of nothing but Cassie's martyr because it was one of the only postivie things that occured during the horrible incident, though true, people only want to think about the positives.
8. Many people, including Michael Moore in 'Bowling for Columbine,' thought the NRA should have rescheduled their conference in Denver. What do you think?
ReplyDeleteThe idea to hold a pro-gun conference in Littleton was a complete disgrace to th efamilies of the victims. If the gun rally had been months or years later, the story would be different, but in this case the NRA was just being a group of ignorant blockheads.
Chanan said...
ReplyDeleteAt first they seem like an unlikely teem because their attitudes come across completely different. What held the relationship together was there determination to follow through with what they have been planning for so long. Eric hated the world, but i feel like he had a little bit more contempt for Dylan. But at the same time, Dylan did seem like just a side-kick.
Yes, I agree with you on this.They didn't seem to match. Eric hated the world and I think Dylan didn't as much. Dylan did seem like a sidekick and I think he just wanted to be one. He didn't want to lead.
3. At the beginning of 'Good-bye' we learn more about Dylan's belief system and Eric's expressions of hate on his website. Given the disparity between their beliefs do they seem to be an unlikely team to you? What do you think was the 'glue' that held their relationship together, given the differences? As Eric expressed hate for so many people and Fuselier saw that as contempt do you think that Eric felt contempt for Dylan?
ReplyDeleteDylan's belief in God and Eric's belief in hatred both contrasted strongly. the fact that they were so different probably provided a balance to keep them together. I dont believe Eric felt contempt for Dylan because, much like Perry from "In Cold Blood," Dylan was just Eric's puppet for destruction and violence.
3. At the beginning of 'Good-bye' we learn more about Dylan's belief system and Eric's expressions of hate on his website. Given the disparity between their beliefs do they seem to be an unlikely team to you? What do you think was the 'glue' that held their relationship together, given the differences? As Eric expressed hate for so many people and Fuselier saw that as contempt do you think that Eric felt contempt for Dylan?
ReplyDeleteI definitely do not see the two teaming up to kill so many innocent people. dylan was a more depressive, yet mellow person, so it seemed unlikely that he would kill a group of innocent people. Meanwhile, Eric was depressive, but was full of anger and rage at everyone and everything possible. They were similar in terms of the fact that they wanted to kill themselves in order to not worry about anything, the only thing is that Dylan just plainly wanted to let it go. The "glue" of there relationship was that Eric and Dylan didn't care for anything, therefor they were willing to kill themselves. Eric was not contempt to others, but in a way, he was with Dylan, because they both were emotionally unstable, which led to the homicides and then the suicides of them both.
4. Eric's website (complete with bomb instructions) was reported to the police on August 7, 1997. Does this seem like a place where Eric's eventual plans could have been stopped? Why do you think that this violent information seems to have been ignored and wasn't followed up on? Do you feel like the police should have been held responsible for not following through more thoroughly?
ReplyDeletewhen the police found record of Eric's plans of constructing bombs, by them taking more of a legal action, it truly would not have changed the massacre, mainly because of the fact that Eric was a both a sociopath and a psychopath, therefor, he would have comitted the crimes either way. Police most likely ignored the information because they didn't think Eric would have followed through with the devious plans, because they thought no one would even think of doing anything like that. In reality, they should not be held responsible, because there was not enough information to conlude that Eric had any mental problems. to the cops at the time, he was only a teenager trying to have a little fun.
Stephen said...
ReplyDeleteDave Cullen leads the audience to the conclusion that Eric was a psychopath and Dylan was an angry depressive who would not ordinarily have killed others, although he might have killed himself. In “Rebels,” way back in Part I, Cullen mentions that Eric was “a little control freak. He gauged his moves and determined just how much he could get away with. He could suck up like crazy to make things go his way” (9). This sounds like exactly the manipulator that Cullen later describes as being a psychopath: “Psychopaths appear charming and likable, but it’s an act. They are coldhearted manipulators who will do anything for their own gain” (187). Dylan, on the other hand, seems to have been heading toward suicide, but Eric’s plans might have turned his anger outward and caused him to want to go along with Eric, kill others, and then kill himself.
I agree completely. The fact that Dyaln probably would not have killed anybody else accentuates how much of an impact Eric had. Eric was the ring leader and brought Dylan with him. Without Eric, there was no massacre.
Jake said...
ReplyDeletewhen the police found record of Eric's plans of constructing bombs, by them taking more of a legal action, it truly would not have changed the massacre, mainly because of the fact that Eric was a both a sociopath and a psychopath, therefor, he would have comitted the crimes either way. Police most likely ignored the information because they didn't think Eric would have followed through with the devious plans, because they thought no one would even think of doing anything like that. In reality, they should not be held responsible, because there was not enough information to conlude that Eric had any mental problems. to the cops at the time, he was only a teenager trying to have a little fun.
I understand your thinking, but I beg to differ. I feel like the murders could have been prevented. The web site was a major tip-off and could have been used as evidence to arrest eric. If that had happened, Eric wouldn't have been at Columbine to kill.
Jordanna said...
ReplyDeleteThey didn't seem to match. Eric hated the world and I think Dylan didn't as much. Dylan did seem like a sidekick and I think he just wanted to be one. He didn't want to lead.
I agree because Dylan's lack of enthusiasm during the murders was very strange for a mass murderer. the fact that eric fired most of the shots indicated to me that he was giong to be the most involved and influential of the two. Eric's long lasting friendship with dylan also led to more of a "if you aren't with me you're against me" mentality.
Cullen portrays Cassie's martyr as amazing and heroic. I believe that the martyr was a sign that she did not care whether she was silenced or not, she only cared that her religion would not collapse under the evil pressure of Eric. people talked of nothing but Cassie's martyr because it was one of the only postivie things that occured during the horrible incident, though true, people only want to think about the positives.
ReplyDeleteI agree completely. People respond well to positive outlets that allow them to heal faster. By creating a saint during a horrible incident, they could feel beter secure.
Jordanna said...
ReplyDeleteI think Dylan brought it to the attention of Brooks Brown with the intention of letting the police know of the situtation. I think underneath Dylan was scared and didn't want to kill as much as Eric did.
I thought the same. Dylan was so hesitant to kill. He definitely didn't want to go through with this deep down, leading me to believe that Eric was the leader and mastermind. In reality, I believe Dylan was a scared kid looking for a way out.
2. What do you think of the beliefs portrayed in 'Jesus Jesus Jesus'? What do you make of the phenomenon surrounding Cassie Bernall? Do you think that people in the community created their own saint to make something good out of a horrible incident?
ReplyDeleteI think the beliefs portrayed in Jesus Jesus Jesus seemed a little over the top because of the tragedy and the Cassie phenomenon seemed to be a way for people to heal by creating this martyr that brings light out of this situation. They did create the Cassie saint to make a brighter side to this event. That's why so many people really ran with it. It was a beam of light through their dark times
4. Eric's website (complete with bomb instructions) was reported to the police on August 7, 1997. Does this seem like a place where Eric's eventual plans could have been stopped? Why do you think that this violent information seems to have been ignored and wasn't followed up on? Do you feel like the police should have been held responsible for not following through more thoroughly?
ReplyDeleteI definitely think this is the place where Eric could've been stopped in his tracks. I think the police may have just taken it for teenage rage and angst and nothing serious. I feel like in a way, the police should be held responsible. At least for not following through, not the whole massacre. Maybe if they would've searched Eric's house,they could've seen what he was planning for later.
5. 'Good-bye' has the first musing of Fuselier regarding Dylan and Eric's sanity. Given what you read here do you feel that they were sane? Do you think Cullen has presented enough information about psychopathy at this point in the book to allow the audience to make a decision regarding whether or not Eric is a psychopath?
ReplyDeleteI feel like Dylan did have some mental illness of some kind but not the degree that which Eric suffered from. I believe he has and that Eric is a psychopath. As you read about Eric and then read about the information given on psychopaths, you can see that the two fit hand in hand. Eric seems to be the textbook psychopath
6. What did you make of the story of the 15 crosses? Were you surprised by the reaction of the community (including the expressions of forgiveness)? What did you think of Brian Rohrbough's reaction? The carpenter who put up the crosses turned out to be a con man. Do you think that the type of exploitation he represents is typical in this type of tragedy - or is that just a cynical viewpoint? Does it even matter what the carpenter's intentions were if people found comfort from the crosses?
ReplyDeletei thought the story about the crosses was very touching but also it just made me mad with what the carpenter did. i was surprised with how the people were trying to be forgiving. i was not surprised by anger or brian's reaction. i think he was justified in what he did but at the same time, no one considered the feelings of the klebolds. i think this exploitation is typical because people do terrible things like this but it didn't matter that he did because in the end it helped. the people found comfort with the crosses and that's really all that mattered. con or not.
8. Many people, including Michael Moore in 'Bowling for Columbine,' thought the NRA should have rescheduled their conference in Denver. What do you think?
ReplyDeletei believe they should've because that was just inconsiderate of them to come and rip open the communities fresh wounds. people had just lost their children to the very thing the NRA promotes: guns. Doesn't that sound stupid? A gun rally coming to a place where many people were just killed by guns? it's just common sense. these people should've waited until a better time instead of being too proud to stay away. it makes me mad that people do things like this. how they blatantly ignored the community's feelings and only looked at themselves and their ridiculous group of gun-waving neanderthals
Jordanna said...
ReplyDelete9. Even while he was entering diversion Eric had a website up which threatened to kill people. Dylan brought it to the attention of Brooks Brown. What was Dylan's motivation in revealing the website to Brooks?
I think Dylan brought it to the attention of Brooks Brown with the intention of letting the police know of the situtation. I think underneath Dylan was scared and didn't want to kill as much as Eric did.
i agree. i believe that Dylan didn't really want this to happen and was having second thoughts about it. i think he wanted them to be found out
Jason Rodencal said...
ReplyDelete8. Many people, including Michael Moore in 'Bowling for Columbine,' thought the NRA should have rescheduled their conference in Denver. What do you think?
I can see the NRA’s viewpoint in this actually. They don’t want to be victimized for the tragedy, and they still have the right to grieve for the tragedy, but I don’t think it was a good decision to have the conference. I don’t understand why after a horrible violent gun tragedy they can have a pro-gun rally. If they had really wanted to help they could have had a rally about gun safety and educating children not to take out their violent thoughts through guns. There were a lot of alternatives they could have chosen while still not compromising their point. I feel that the NRA’s blatant disregard for the feelings of the victims and the families of the victims was just irresponsible, if not cruel.
i completely agree and i hadn't even begun to consider any other option than them staying away but you make a good point about a gun safety rally. i agree that they were being very irresponsible and i think it's sad that they even dared to do that
Stuart said...
ReplyDelete10. Do you think that things have changed since Columbine regarding online threats - or do you think that this sort of thing could be posted on a website now without consequences? (Think about the recent cyber-bullying suicides like Tyler Clementi and Phoebe Prince reported in the media).
I believe that cyber-bullying has only gotten worse since Columbine. With Facebook and Formspring, words, rather than actions, can spark overreactions. This sort of thing is stroongly looked down upon, but can also be considered a crime. Cyber bullying is no laughing matter.
you make a really great point about how cyber-bullying has only continued to grow. facebook and formspring definitely don't help and it kinda makes you wonder if some people are responsible enough to even use these sites. there's really no way to stop cyber bullying but there has to be a way to cut it down
2. What do you think of the beliefs portrayed in 'Jesus Jesus Jesus'? What do you make of the phenomenon surrounding Cassie Bernall? Do you think that people in the community created their own saint to make something good out of a horrible incident?
ReplyDeleteI think the beliefs in 'Jesus Jesus Jesus' were a bit over done. People definitely created their own saint to make something good out of a horrible incident. People wanted to believe that something amazing happened so that it makes what happened seem less bad. I think people jumped on the band wagon extremely easily with this situation.
3. At the beginning of 'Good-bye' we learn more about Dylan's belief system and Eric's expressions of hate on his website. Given the disparity between their beliefs do they seem to be an unlikely team to you? What do you think was the 'glue' that held their relationship together, given the differences? As Eric expressed hate for so many people and Fuselier saw that as contempt do you think that Eric felt contempt for Dylan?
ReplyDeleteI think they definitely seem like an unlikely team; they are so different. I believe that the 'glue' that held them together was the fact theat Dylan needed somebody to lead him and Eric needed a follower...so they stuck together. I also believe that Eric has contempt for Dylan because they are a team.
4. Eric's website (complete with bomb instructions) was reported to the police on August 7, 1997. Does this seem like a place where Eric's eventual plans could have been stopped? Why do you think that this violent information seems to have been ignored and wasn't followed up on? Do you feel like the police should have been held responsible for not following through more thoroughly?
ReplyDeleteI think that Eric's plans could have been stopped dead in their tracks at this point. I think that this violent information was ignored because the police probably thought that Judy was just overreacting to the situation. The police should have at least a little bit of the blame because they did not stop Eric before it got bad.
Jake Levin said...
ReplyDelete2. What do you think of the beliefs portrayed in 'Jesus Jesus Jesus'? What do you make of the phenomenon surrounding Cassie Bernall? Do you think that people in the community created their own saint to make something good out of a horrible incident?
Cullen portrays Cassie's martyr as amazing and heroic. I believe that the martyr was a sign that she did not care whether she was silenced or not, she only cared that her religion would not collapse under the evil pressure of Eric. people talked of nothing but Cassie's martyr because it was one of the only postivie things that occured during the horrible incident, though true, people only want to think about the positives.
i agree with you that the story or belief of her martyrdom does mean that but i think people shouldn't have taken it that far considering how it was a lie. i believe the witnesses that saw cassie die and the evidence that scott really heard val say that. cassie was a devout christian but didn't get enough time to express that
5. 'Good-bye' has the first musing of Fuselier regarding Dylan and Eric's sanity. Given what you read here do you feel that they were sane? Do you think Cullen has presented enough information about psychopathy at this point in the book to allow the audience to make a decision regarding whether or not Eric is a psychopath?
ReplyDeleteI don't think that Eric and Dylan were completely sane. A sane person would not create bombs to blow up a school or shoot people. I don't think that Cullen has given us enough information about psychopathy to make our own conclusions about whether Eric was a psychopath or not.
8. Many people, including Michael Moore in 'Bowling for Columbine,' thought the NRA should have rescheduled their conference in Denver. What do you think?
ReplyDeleteThe conference in Denver shhould have been rescheduled, no question about it. It was way too soon after the massacre involving guns for there to be a gun rally supporting guns. I believe that by having this rally, the people in charge show that they support the killing and injuries of the students and teachers at Columbine.
Khayl you said...
ReplyDeletei believe they should've because that was just inconsiderate of them to come and rip open the communities fresh wounds. people had just lost their children to the very thing the NRA promotes: guns. Doesn't that sound stupid? A gun rally coming to a place where many people were just killed by guns? it's just common sense. these people should've waited until a better time instead of being too proud to stay away. it makes me mad that people do things like this. how they blatantly ignored the community's feelings and only looked at themselves and their ridiculous group of gun-waving neanderthals
I totally agree with you Khayl. It was extremely disrespectful and rude to have the gun rally so soon after the devestating event. It definitely opened up fresh wounds, and for no reason. The gun rally should have been moved too a later date.
Jake Levin you said...
ReplyDeletewhen the police found record of Eric's plans of constructing bombs, by them taking more of a legal action, it truly would not have changed the massacre, mainly because of the fact that Eric was a both a sociopath and a psychopath, therefor, he would have comitted the crimes either way. Police most likely ignored the information because they didn't think Eric would have followed through with the devious plans, because they thought no one would even think of doing anything like that. In reality, they should not be held responsible, because there was not enough information to conlude that Eric had any mental problems. to the cops at the time, he was only a teenager trying to have a little fun.
I have to disagree with you. I believe that the events could have been majorly changed if the cops had taken Eric's bombs more seriously. If they would have done somethinng about it theN, I think the killings would have never happened at Columbine because Eric would have been arrested and wouldn't be able to commit the awful acts.
Stuart you said...
ReplyDeleteDylan's belief in God and Eric's belief in hatred both contrasted strongly. the fact that they were so different probably provided a balance to keep them together. I dont believe Eric felt contempt for Dylan because, much like Perry from "In Cold Blood," Dylan was just Eric's puppet for destruction and violence.
I agree with you in the fact that Dylan was Eric's puppet but I think that Eric still felt contempt for him, almost like how an owner would feel to his pet. I believe that they mesh well together because they are so different.
Jordanna you said...
ReplyDeleteI think Dylan brought it to the attention of Brooks Brown with the intention of letting the police know of the situtation. I think underneath Dylan was scared and didn't want to kill as much as Eric did.
I agree with you. I think that Dylan wanted the police too know but he didn't want to tell them himsself for fear that Eric would find out who told. I also agree that Eric was scared and started realizing what he was getting himself into.
Sammie K you said...
ReplyDeleteWe discussed today in class that by the time an American child reaches the age of 5, he or she has already been exposed to over 5,000 displays of violence. Sure, people learn from what they see. Sure, filmakers and musicians have a huge impact on people's lives, opinions, even choices. But denying people the right of expressing themselves violently or exposing themselves to such things would wreak more havoc than the aforestated exposure does. Parents cannot take the responsibility of monitoring everything their child is exposed to; the poison offered by the media is a huge concern. It is each individual's responsibility, though, to monitor what he or she takes in, and to react responsibly.
I definitely agree with you and also think that it is an individual's own responsibility of how they react to certain violentt things. It cannot be blamed on film makers or musicians.
Shelby Dover said...
ReplyDelete5. 'Good-bye' has the first musing of Fuselier regarding Dylan and Eric's sanity. Given what you read here do you feel that they were sane? Do you think Cullen has presented enough information about psychopathy at this point in the book to allow the audience to make a decision regarding whether or not Eric is a psychopath?
I don't think that Eric and Dylan were completely sane. A sane person would not create bombs to blow up a school or shoot people. I don't think that Cullen has given us enough information about psychopathy to make our own conclusions about whether Eric was a psychopath or not.
i agree with that fact that a sane person would not do this but i think we were provided with enough info to asses that Eric is a psychopath. his exhibits too many signs in his journal and his feelings throughout the book. it's hard to overlook that but i see how you would consider the lack of information
4. Eric's website (complete with bomb instructions) was reported to the police on August 7, 1997. Does this seem like a place where Eric's eventual plans could have been stopped? Why do you think that this violent information seems to have been ignored and wasn't followed up on? Do you feel like the police should have been held responsible for not following through more thoroughly?
ReplyDeleteI definitely think that the shooting maybe could have been prevented if the police took it seriously. I think the police probably ignored it because they thought that it wasn't as serious as it looked. Who knows...I definitely think that they should be held responsible because they could have followed through and done their job, but they didn't.
8. Many people, including Michael Moore in 'Bowling for Columbine,' thought the NRA should have rescheduled their conference in Denver. What do you think?
ReplyDeleteI think that it was rude that they did it less than two weeks after the shooting took place. They should have shown more sympathy towards the victims.
10. Do you think that things have changed since Columbine regarding online threats - or do you think that this sort of thing could be posted on a website now without consequences? (Think about the recent cyber-bullying suicides like Tyler Clementi and Phoebe Prince reported in the media).
ReplyDeleteI do think threats could be posted on a website without consequences because cyber-bullying still takes place and as a result people commit suicide. I think that if someone posted something like "I want to annihilate mankind" or described how they made and "detonated bombs" next to their neighbors could possibly result to consequences nowadays. On the other hand, if someone posted mean remarks and threatening messages to another person they would get off scot free.
Jazmine said...
ReplyDelete4. Eric's website (complete with bomb instructions) was reported to the police on August 7, 1997. Does this seem like a place where Eric's eventual plans could have been stopped? Why do you think that this violent information seems to have been ignored and wasn't followed up on? Do you feel like the police should have been held responsible for not following through more thoroughly?
I definitely think that the shooting maybe could have been prevented if the police took it seriously. I think the police probably ignored it because they thought that it wasn't as serious as it looked. Who knows...I definitely think that they should be held responsible because they could have followed through and done their job, but they didn't.
The police followed through and they did get ready to act, but leaving the search warrant unsigned after so much effort on their part to investigate Eric is ridiculous. I totally agree that the police did not do their job in protecting the public from this psycopath.
9. Even while he was entering diversion Eric had a website up which threatened to kill people. Dylan brought it to the attention of Brooks Brown. What was Dylan's motivation in revealing the website to Brooks?
ReplyDeleteI think that Dylans motivation was to warn Brooks about the things that Eric was saying about him. On the website Eric wanted Brooks to pay for what he had done to him and Dylan wanted to let him know. I also think that he wanted Brooks to notify the police. Deep down Dylan really didn't want to kill like Eric wanted to.
5. 'Good-bye' has the first musing of Fuselier regarding Dylan and Eric's sanity. Given what you read here do you feel that they were sane? Do you think Cullen has presented enough information about psychopathy at this point in the book to allow the audience to make a decision regarding whether or not Eric is a psychopath?
ReplyDeleteI feel like Dylan did have some mental illness of some kind but not the degree that which Eric suffered from. I believe he has and that Eric is a psychopath. As you read about Eric and then read about the information given on psychopaths, you can see that the two fit hand in hand. Eric seems to be the textbook psychopath.
I don't feel like Eric and Dylan suffered from the same illness at all, while Eric was planning for the "big day" from the start, Dylan contemplated suicide many times in his teenage life. They both suffered extremely from their illnesses the same though. I feel that without Eric's constant hope of death in their shooting, there is a good chance Dylan would have killed himself beforehand due to his suicidal nature clearly demonstrating his psychological problems.
5. 'Good-bye' has the first musing of Fuselier regarding Dylan and Eric's sanity. Given what you read here do you feel that they were sane? Do you think Cullen has presented enough information about psychopathy at this point in the book to allow the audience to make a decision regarding whether or not Eric is a psychopath?
ReplyDeleteBetween Dylan and Eric Dylan was the saner person. I think that Eric was a full blown pyschopath. All the information about 'a pyschopath' that Cullen describes goes hand in hand with how Eric was. He could fake emotions and was extremely manipulative. Dylan was just a depressed person. I personally thought that he was bipolar because sometimes he would be happy, but most of the time he just wanted to kill himself.
5. 'Good-bye' has the first musing of Fuselier regarding Dylan and Eric's sanity. Given what you read here do you feel that they were sane? Do you think Cullen has presented enough information about psychopathy at this point in the book to allow the audience to make a decision regarding whether or not Eric is a psychopath?
ReplyDeleteThough both Dylan and Eric were able to interact with others and, for the most part, control themselves. On the contrary, both of the youths had major signs of mental problems, which related to psychopathic areas of insanity. Basically, they couldnt control themselves when sent over the edge, mainly because of an uncontrollable urge that would build up inside them, causing them to do things they do no think about before hand. With everything that has been given up to this point of this book, I, as well as most of the readers, are convinced that Eric Harris is truly a psychopath, only wanting to fulfill his desires of pleasure by comitting illegal crimes, such as the constructing of bombs, and in the end, the slaying of innocent people.
James, you said...
ReplyDeleteI feel like Dylan did have some mental illness of some kind but not the degree that which Eric suffered from. I believe he has and that Eric is a psychopath. As you read about Eric and then read about the information given on psychopaths, you can see that the two fit hand in hand. Eric seems to be the textbook psychopath.
I don't feel like Eric and Dylan suffered from the same illness at all, while Eric was planning for the "big day" from the start, Dylan contemplated suicide many times in his teenage life. They both suffered extremely from their illnesses the same though. I feel that without Eric's constant hope of death in their shooting, there is a good chance Dylan would have killed himself beforehand due to his suicidal nature clearly demonstrating his psychological problems.
I completely agree with you. Eric definitely was the text book psychopath and Dylan was just a suicidal teenager.
Jake Levin, you said...
ReplyDeleteCullen portrays Cassie's martyr as amazing and heroic. I believe that the martyr was a sign that she did not care whether she was silenced or not, she only cared that her religion would not collapse under the evil pressure of Eric. people talked of nothing but Cassie's martyr because it was one of the only postivie things that occured during the horrible incident, though true, people only want to think about the positives.
I agree with you. Even though everyone is confused about whether Cassie really said "yes" or even spoke at all in the library I believe that something positive came out of it. I think that it helped people cope with her death (just like when everyone said Danny Rohrbough died while holding the door open for his fellow classmates so they could get to safety)
4. Eric's website (complete with bomb instructions) was reported to the police on August 7, 1997. Does this seem like a place where Eric's eventual plans could have been stopped? Why do you think that this violent information seems to have been ignored and wasn't followed up on? Do you feel like the police should have been held responsible for not following through more thoroughly?
ReplyDelete-I absolutely think that Eric's plans could have been stopped had this been looked into further. I think that people are used to hearing bomb threats and other types of threats that people never end up following through with. The problem with giving these people the benefit of the doubt is that you never know who is going to actual come through with their threats and hurt someone. The police probably didn't think anything was going to come of it, or they were too lazy too really look into the matter like they should have. I'm sure if they thought that if Eric was really going to do what he said, they would have checked into it thoroughly and gone to great lengths to prevent it. The problem is that they assumed he wasn't. I think it is their job to double and triple check in these situations. It could have easily been preventable, I think they should definitely be punished in some way, even though I don't think prison time would be appropriate. What was really much more disturbing to me was the cover up after Columbine. That is what they really need to be punished for. They didn't even admit they were wrong and fess up, instead, people like Judy Brown were looked upon as liars in the Jeffco authorities' attempt to save their own hides.
8. Many people, including Michael Moore in 'Bowling for Columbine,' thought the NRA should have rescheduled their conference in Denver. What do you think?
ReplyDeleteI think that it was rude that they did it less than two weeks after the shooting took place. They should have shown more sympathy towards the victims.
It was insensitive to the survivors of the Columbine shooting to hold the gun rally there. I completely agree with your view point. I feel like they could have been ridiculed equally if they had held a gun conference anywhere after the shooting though, but it does not justify their choice of Littleton for the show.
Khayl, you said...
ReplyDeletei thought the story about the crosses was very touching but also it just made me mad with what the carpenter did. i was surprised with how the people were trying to be forgiving. i was not surprised by anger or brian's reaction. i think he was justified in what he did but at the same time, no one considered the feelings of the klebolds. i think this exploitation is typical because people do terrible things like this but it didn't matter that he did because in the end it helped. the people found comfort with the crosses and that's really all that mattered. con or not
Thats exactly waht I was thinking. I think that what the carpenter did was wrong and the way the community was so ready to forgive shocked me. Brian's actions were not surprising at all. He was hurt by the fact that the two people that killed his son had a cross next to all the others they murdered. On the other hand, I definitely agree with you when you said that no one considered the feelings of the Klebolds (or the Harrises).
8. Many people, including Michael Moore in 'Bowling for Columbine,' thought the NRA should have rescheduled their conference in Denver. What do you think?
ReplyDelete-I absolutely think that the NRA should have rescheduled their conference in Denver. It was less than 2 weeks after the Columbine shooting and the entire community was still healing. It was absolutely no time to stoke the flames, and upsetting the families of the victims. I am extremely pro-gun, and personally, I don't like the way that Charlton Heston portrayed pro-gun supporters. He feeds into the stereotype that we are heartless and unsympathetic. My heart goes out to everyone affected by the Columbine shooting, and I don't think it was the time or the place to have a rally for the NRA.
*i meant to say "upset the families of the victims"
ReplyDeleteMegan, you said...
ReplyDelete-I absolutely think that Eric's plans could have been stopped had this been looked into further. I think that people are used to hearing bomb threats and other types of threats that people never end up following through with. The problem with giving these people the benefit of the doubt is that you never know who is going to actual come through with their threats and hurt someone. The police probably didn't think anything was going to come of it, or they were too lazy too really look into the matter like they should have. I'm sure if they thought that if Eric was really going to do what he said, they would have checked into it thoroughly and gone to great lengths to prevent it. The problem is that they assumed he wasn't. I think it is their job to double and triple check in these situations. It could have easily been preventable, I think they should definitely be punished in some way, even though I don't think prison time would be appropriate. What was really much more disturbing to me was the cover up after Columbine. That is what they really need to be punished for. They didn't even admit they were wrong and fess up, instead, people like Judy Brown were looked upon as liars in the Jeffco authorities' attempt to save their own hides.
I agree with you 100%. I think that the police didn't believe that Eric would actually follow through with his rants and so they didn't take action (which was stupid). You were totally right when you said that the police department was wrong after trying to cover up evidence when Columbine was over. I really wanted to throw the book when they pulled that cover up because why in world would they do a thing like that!? They acted in an extremely selfish way just to cover their own behinds.
11. What do you think of Eric's comments with regard to God and people in 'The Book of God.' Do you think that he really saw himself as being superior to other humans? Do you think that this led him to be able to justify his acts - or is that over thinking this whole thing because we look for things that would give justification because we would need it - but someone like Eric didn't?
ReplyDelete-I think that Eric DID see himself as superior to other humans, it is one of his strong traits that comes from his being a psychopath. His inability to have feelings might mistake the feelings normal people have as vulnerability. He misidentified moral values and trust for weakness and stupidity on the part of the human race. I don't think that Eric was trying to justify the Columbine shootings. Besides that being a completely unjustifiable reason, Eric felt most comfortable in his typical unfeeling, detached, psychopathic state. He had no conscience that required any type of justification. Healthy people might think he was justifying it, simply because of our difficulty in comprehending the mindset of a psychopath.
Sammie K, you said...
ReplyDeleteWe discussed today in class that by the time an American child reaches the age of 5, he or she has already been exposed to over 5,000 displays of violence. Sure, people learn from what they see. Sure, filmakers and musicians have a huge impact on people's lives, opinions, even choices. But denying people the right of expressing themselves violently or exposing themselves to such things would wreak more havoc than the aforestated exposure does. Parents cannot take the responsibility of monitoring everything their child is exposed to; the poison offered by the media is a huge concern. It is each individual's responsibility, though, to monitor what he or she takes in, and to react responsibly.
I agree! It is 100% the responsiblity for an individual to take responsiblity for their actions and no one elses no matter what they are influenced by. I think that surpressing the peoples right to express themsleves would definitely be dangerous to do.
Stuart said...
ReplyDeleteI understand your thinking, but I beg to differ. I feel like the murders could have been prevented. The web site was a major tip-off and could have been used as evidence to arrest eric. If that had happened, Eric wouldn't have been at Columbine to kill.
Though this may be true, for Eric to be thrown in jail, he would not be in there for any major amount of time. Once he got out of jail, if not already past graduation, he would have used that built up anger to fulfill his psychopathic desires by killing other innocent people in a public area, which almost certainly would have lead to a massacre of a greater scale.
Stuart said...
ReplyDelete10. Do you think that things have changed since Columbine regarding online threats - or do you think that this sort of thing could be posted on a website now without consequences? (Think about the recent cyber-bullying suicides like Tyler Clementi and Phoebe Prince reported in the media).
I believe that cyber-bullying has only gotten worse since Columbine. With Facebook and Formspring, words, rather than actions, can spark overreactions. This sort of thing is stroongly looked down upon, but can also be considered a crime. Cyber bullying is no laughing matter.
Though I agree the potential for cyber bullying has dramatically increased with the rise of social networking sites. There is no way that within all of a person's "friends" there will be some enemies wanting to attack them, so I totally agree with you.
6. What did you make of the story of the 15 crosses? Were you surprised by the reaction of the community (including the expressions of forgiveness)? What did you think of Brian Rohrbough's reaction? The carpenter who put up the crosses turned out to be a con man. Do you think that the type of exploitation he represents is typical in this type of tragedy - or is that just a cynical viewpoint? Does it even matter what the carpenter's intentions were if people found comfort from the crosses?
ReplyDelete-I thought this was sickening. The carpenter twisted everyone's emotions in the pursuit of his own 15 minutes of fame and money. He knew the type of reaction this would bring out of the community. I would never want the cross of the murderer of MY child stood up as a public memorial. Quite frankly, Eric and Dylan didn't deserve that type of pity. Perhaps if they had killed themselves, simply committed suicide, than they would be deserving of some pity. However, when you take the lives of innocent people as well, you lose all respect in my eyes. Any person who would kill another person simply for their own amusement, is in an entirely indescribable category of evil. The forgiveness didn't really surprise me. I think for some people, it is hard to understand exactly what Eric and Dylan did. Maybe they are just too good to fully comprehend that kind of evil, they justify and try to forgive it, because it makes them feel somewhat better about what happened. Some people say "but they lost their lives too", which I think is dramatically misstated. Eric and Dylan didn't just lose their lives, they chose to kill themselves after they TOOK the lives of their classmates. They weren't even big enough people to take responsibility for what they did. They took the easy way out and left everyone else to suffer without the gratification of having someone to wholeheartedly hold responsible. The sad thing is, is that had Eric still been alive, he would have been laughing about the mess he created. Here some of us are feeling bad for HIM. They knew exactly what they were doing, and they were happy about it. They don't have an ounce of my pity or understanding. Brian Rohrbough is completely justified in feeling the way he does. His life is forever ruined, and the life of his son is no longer existent, because of the self centered, egotistical boys. If I was in his situation and someone erected a memorial for the killer of my child, I would have done the same exact thing. I think there will always be the rare wack job who is craving attention and willing to go to exploit any type of tragedy, without caring about the repercussions on the people affected. I certainly don't think that anywhere close to the majority of people sink that low in these type of catastrophic situations though.
Jake Levin said...
ReplyDeleteStuart said...
I understand your thinking, but I beg to differ. I feel like the murders could have been prevented. The web site was a major tip-off and could have been used as evidence to arrest eric. If that had happened, Eric wouldn't have been at Columbine to kill.
Though this may be true, for Eric to be thrown in jail, he would not be in there for any major amount of time. Once he got out of jail, if not already past graduation, he would have used that built up anger to fulfill his psychopathic desires by killing other innocent people in a public area, which almost certainly would have lead to a massacre of a greater scale.
Eric wouldn't have stayed in jail for very long anyways. With the mind of a psychopath, he could have easily faked his way out of prison by conveying his non-existent sorrow for his actions. This monster was easily able to manipulate himself out of situations, and though it may have been more severe than previous ones, unless he absolutely blew his top after being discovered he would have made it out easily.
I understand your thinking, but I beg to differ. I feel like the murders could have been prevented. The web site was a major tip-off and could have been used as evidence to arrest eric. If that had happened, Eric wouldn't have been at Columbine to kill.
ReplyDeleteThough this may be true, If Eric was thrown in jail, he truly would not have stayed there very long off of some bland evidence. Once he got out, if graduation had already passed, he would eventually have pleased his psychopathic desires by comitting a massacre in a public area with a more serious and devastating death toll than that of Columbine.
9. Even while he was entering diversion Eric had a website up which threatened to kill people. Dylan brought it to the attention of Brooks Brown. What was Dylan's motivation in revealing the website to Brooks?
ReplyDelete-I think that Dylan was probably looking after the well being of Brooks. Dylan probably liked Brooks and felt like he would be safer with Eric being closely monitored. He probably also felt that Eric was beginning to lose control (or he was just now realizing how out of control Eric had been the entire time). Perhaps Dylan felt that he was in too deep, and the easiest way to break away from Eric was to have him behind bars.
3. At the beginning of 'Good-bye' we learn more about Dylan's belief system and Eric's expressions of hate on his website. Given the disparity between their beliefs do they seem to be an unlikely team to you? What do you think was the 'glue' that held their relationship together, given the differences? As Eric expressed hate for so many people and Fuselier saw that as contempt do you think that Eric felt contempt for Dylan?
ReplyDeleteThey do not seem like an unlikely team to me. I view them as a bond, one strong brace holding the weaker one from snapping. Eric manipulated Dylan to make him a tool for his destruction. For the reason of using Dylan for his own purposes, I do not believe Eric had contempt for Dylan, but he certainly didn't care about him either. From the mind of a psychopath, Dylan was just another pawn in Eric's plan which would help him in the long run, so rather than having contempt for him, he had no feelings for Dylan.
Chanan said...
ReplyDeleteAt first they seem like an unlikely teem because their attitudes come across completely different. What held the relationship together was there determination to follow through with what they have been planning for so long. Eric hated the world, but i feel like he had a little bit more contempt for Dylan. But at the same time, Dylan did seem like just a side-kick.
I completely agree with you point. The main thing that kept the two criminals together was the fact that Eric knew he could control Dylan, and that Dylan really relied on Eric as a friend, so he had no other place to go, basically tag along for the ride through hell, making him the side-kick.
4. Eric's website (complete with bomb instructions) was reported to the police on August 7, 1997. Does this seem like a place where Eric's eventual plans could have been stopped? Why do you think that this violent information seems to have been ignored and wasn't followed up on? Do you feel like the police should have been held responsible for not following through more thoroughly?
ReplyDeleteEric was a madman, from the start and to the end. Whether or not he had his website looked at, he went to jail or had to do some more community service, he still would have gone on to commit his atrocious act. any punishment he might endure during that period after being discovered would only have added to his hatred of human kind. This violent information seems to not have been followed up on entirely because the police were not active enough in their efforts to pursue
a warrant. While I do believe the cops are at fault for not taking care of the warrant properly, I also do not believe that the warrant alone could possibly have stopped the killer.
2. What do you think of the beliefs portrayed in 'Jesus Jesus Jesus'? What do you make of the phenomenon surrounding Cassie Bernall? Do you think that people in the community created their own saint to make something good out of a horrible incident?
ReplyDeleteI think that the beliefs portrayed in this chaper are inaccuate. The people involved in this event need something to comfort them, and church is what some of they use, even though I do think some people went for the right reasons. I think that Cassie Bernall's story is amazing. She stood up for her beliefs even when she had a gun to her head and this shows how strong her beliefs were.
Shelby said...
ReplyDeleteI have to disagree with you. I believe that the events could have been majorly changed if the cops had taken Eric's bombs more seriously. If they would have done somethinng about it theN, I think the killings would have never happened at Columbine because Eric would have been arrested and wouldn't be able to commit the awful acts.
I understand where you are cmoing from, but I have to agree with you. The duo would have been sent to jail, sure, but they would not have stayed for anything longer than a year, for there was not enough evidence from the website. lets say school had ended, and they missed graduation, Eric would have needed to please his desire to kill and do wrong. The only solution would be to kill a large amount of people, possibly in a public area, resulting in a massive amount of deaths.
5. 'Good-bye' has the first musing of Fuselier regarding Dylan and Eric's sanity. Given what you read here do you feel that they were sane? Do you think Cullen has presented enough information about psychopathy at this point in the book to allow the audience to make a decision regarding whether or not Eric is a psychopath?
ReplyDeleteCullen presents the reader with information regarding his deep hatred towards human kind in general and his belief that he was superior to all the others. He wants to see the inferior people die and obviously for himself to be the only one left. While the reader may not exactly be thinking "psychopath" at this point, it is evident that Eric is psychologically unstable.
3. At the beginning of 'Good-bye' we learn more about Dylan's belief system and Eric's expressions of hate on his website. Given the disparity between their beliefs do they seem to be an unlikely team to you? What do you think was the 'glue' that held their relationship together, given the differences? As Eric expressed hate for so many people and Fuselier saw that as contempt do you think that Eric felt contempt for Dylan?
ReplyDeleteI do think that at the beginning they seem like an unlikely team. THey have different personalities, however, they both had dark thoughts. Eric's journal postings show how disturbed he was and Dylan had been thinking of suicide. I think that their plans kept them together. I also think that their personalities kept them together. Dylan needed someone to follow and Eric benefited from someone following him.
4. Eric's website (complete with bomb instructions) was reported to the police on August 7, 1997. Does this seem like a place where Eric's eventual plans could have been stopped? Why do you think that this violent information seems to have been ignored and wasn't followed up on? Do you feel like the police should have been held responsible for not following through more thoroughly?
ReplyDeleteI think that Eric's plans could have been stopped if the police had done something about it. The police really didn't think anything of it, they didn't think Eric would actually going to do anything that he mentioned on his website. Yes, the police should have been help responsible for not following up on this. If they had, it could have prevented Eric from carrying out his plans. It is totally their fault for not taking this website more seriously.
5. 'Good-bye' has the first musing of Fuselier regarding Dylan and Eric's sanity. Given what you read here do you feel that they were sane? Do you think Cullen has presented enough information about psychopathy at this point in the book to allow the audience to make a decision regarding whether or not Eric is a psychopath?
ReplyDeleteI think that Dylan was sane, he just made some wrong decisions and started hanging out with the wrong people. Eric however, I do not think was sane, especially after seeing some of his journal entries. I think that Cullen has presented enough information to make it clear that Eric was not sane, he was a psychopath.
7. Eric and Dylan became enthralled with films like 'Natural Born Killers' and 'Lost Highway' and musicians like Nine Inch Nails. Do you think society commits an injustice to filmmakers and musicians when we tie them to the actions of deranged killers? Do you think there is any justification in being concerned with the effect of violent films and music on teens - and/or is this something that requires the attention of a parent on a case by case basis?
ReplyDeleteIt is definitely not acceptable to tie these films and musical groups to killers like Dylan and Eric because it just gives the public a glimpse at two people out of the millions that also adore them. I don't think there is any cause for concern unless there is a preexisting condition which may lead to bad influence caused by this stimulation.
James said...
ReplyDeleteThey do not seem like an unlikely team to me. I view them as a bond, one strong brace holding the weaker one from snapping. Eric manipulated Dylan to make him a tool for his destruction. For the reason of using Dylan for his own purposes, I do not believe Eric had contempt for Dylan, but he certainly didn't care about him either. From the mind of a psychopath, Dylan was just another pawn in Eric's plan which would help him in the long run, so rather than having contempt for him, he had no feelings for Dylan.
I totally agree with you. I really liked your analogy.."I view them as a bond, one strong brace holding the weaker one from snapping". This definately makes sense and is so true. Also I agree that Eric had no feelings for Dylan. Eric was just using Dylan for his plans and just wanted the help Dylan could offer.
Elizabeth said...
ReplyDeleteI think that the beliefs portrayed in this chaper are inaccuate. The people involved in this event need something to comfort them, and church is what some of they use, even though I do think some people went for the right reasons. I think that Cassie Bernall's story is amazing. She stood up for her beliefs even when she had a gun to her head and this shows how strong her beliefs were.
Reading through the chapter, I could not find anything specifically wrong. On the other hand, I definitely agree with you when you say that Cassie's martyr is amazing. I do not know if I could do it myself, mainly because I am not seriously religious. Because of this, I am surprised how amazing her story truly is.
8. Many people, including Michael Moore in 'Bowling for Columbine,' thought the NRA should have rescheduled their conference in Denver. What do you think?
ReplyDeleteI agree that the NRA should have reschedualed their conference in Denver. It was unnecessary to hold the conference at that time and they could have reschedualed. I think it was very disrespectful to the families and friends that lost a loved one in the shooting. They should have been more considerate and just reschedualed.
I do think that at the beginning they seem like an unlikely team. THey have different personalities, however, they both had dark thoughts. Eric's journal postings show how disturbed he was and Dylan had been thinking of suicide. I think that their plans kept them together. I also think that their personalities kept them together. Dylan needed someone to follow and Eric benefited from someone following him.
ReplyDeleteI could not agree more with how their personalities kept them together. It is so true that Dylan really relied on Eric, for he had no one else, and Eric gained from Dylan by having an accomplice to help succeed in their dasterdly deeds.
Megan said...
ReplyDeleteI think that Eric DID see himself as superior to other humans, it is one of his strong traits that comes from his being a psychopath. His inability to have feelings might mistake the feelings normal people have as vulnerability. He misidentified moral values and trust for weakness and stupidity on the part of the human race. I don't think that Eric was trying to justify the Columbine shootings. Besides that being a completely unjustifiable reason, Eric felt most comfortable in his typical unfeeling, detached, psychopathic state. He had no conscience that required any type of justification. Healthy people might think he was justifying it, simply because of our difficulty in comprehending the mindset of a psychopath.
I definately agree with you. I do think that Eric saw himself as better than other people. I also agree that Eric didn't even need to justify what he was doing. He was a psychopath and didn't care that what he was doing was going to cause people their lives. I doubt he even thought twice about it.
8. Many people, including Michael Moore in 'Bowling for Columbine,' thought the NRA should have rescheduled their conference in Denver. What do you think?
ReplyDeleteAfter some research, I discovered that the NRA gun show had been preplanned and it was impossible under the law to change the meeting date in time to avoid the nasty incident. The NRA had a choice to either have the rally then or completely call it off. They decided to have the rally and canceled all other activities in reverence to the victims at Columbine. I believe that given the circumstances, they should have canceled the rally in favor of a later date, but given that they had little flexibility and they did cancel everything but the main rally, their efforts were in good heart and they should not have to take any grief because of it.
1. How do you feel about the tone of the chapter 'Jesus Jesus Jesus'? Is it suitably respectful to the religious beliefs of the people in Columbine in their reaction to the attacks? Is it analytical enough of the beliefs?
ReplyDelete- i feel the tone is appropriate. it was exposing the religious beliefs and how it affected the healing process. I think people too the crosses too far. even though the killers were killers, they were still someones son, someones friend and they died that day as well.
Jazmine said...
ReplyDeleteBetween Dylan and Eric Dylan was the saner person. I think that Eric was a full blown pyschopath. All the information about 'a pyschopath' that Cullen describes goes hand in hand with how Eric was. He could fake emotions and was extremely manipulative. Dylan was just a depressed person. I personally thought that he was bipolar because sometimes he would be happy, but most of the time he just wanted to kill himself.
I agree with you on this. Eric was definately crazier than Dylan. Thoughout the novel, it is clear Eric has problems and that he does not have emotion. Dylan was depressed, he wanted to kill himself and I think that it was because he was depressed that he went along with Eric. I think if he had not been depressed, he wouldn't have been friends with Eric.
3. At the beginning of 'Good-bye' we learn more about Dylan's belief system and Eric's expressions of hate on his website. Given the disparity between their beliefs do they seem to be an unlikely team to you? What do you think was the 'glue' that held their relationship together, given the differences? As Eric expressed hate for so many people and Fuselier saw that as contempt do you think that Eric felt contempt for Dylan?
ReplyDelete- i think they make the perfect team, one was the brains the other was the executer. The glue was their mutual hate of this world, they even called it "the toilet known as earth."
jason wani said...
ReplyDeletei feel the tone is appropriate. it was exposing the religious beliefs and how it affected the healing process. I think people too the crosses too far. even though the killers were killers, they were still someones son, someones friend and they died that day as well.
I agree with you. I thought the tone was appropriate for this chapter. It was respectful to the beliefs of the people in COlumbine and was effective.
4. Eric's website (complete with bomb instructions) was reported to the police on August 7, 1997. Does this seem like a place where Eric's eventual plans could have been stopped? Why do you think that this violent information seems to have been ignored and wasn't followed up on? Do you feel like the police should have been held responsible for not following through more thoroughly?
ReplyDelete- definitly. he like laid it all out and basically said f the world, i hate this place, then named the people he wanted to kill. i think if these signs were caught then this might have all been prevented. the police yes should have definitely been held responsible. These were graphic examples and signs something was going to happen.
8. Many people, including Michael Moore in 'Bowling for Columbine,' thought the NRA should have rescheduled their conference in Denver. What do you think?
ReplyDelete-absolutely, yes they had the "right" to be there but that doesn't mean they should. It was not right people were still trying to heal, just because people have the right to do something, doesnt mean they should.
Khayl said...
ReplyDeletei believe they should've because that was just inconsiderate of them to come and rip open the communities fresh wounds. people had just lost their children to the very thing the NRA promotes: guns. Doesn't that sound stupid? A gun rally coming to a place where many people were just killed by guns? it's just common sense. these people should've waited until a better time instead of being too proud to stay away. it makes me mad that people do things like this. how they blatantly ignored the community's feelings and only looked at themselves and their ridiculous group of gun-waving neanderthals
I totally agree with you on this. These people were already hurting and coming to this town only a few weeks after the shooting was very inconsiderate. Some of these people's classmates and familiy members were killed by a gun, and the last thing they probably wanted was a gun rally to promote the use of this weapon that killed their loved one. The NRA should have just waited to have the rally or moved the location.
9. Even while he was entering diversion Eric had a website up which threatened to kill people. Dylan brought it to the attention of Brooks Brown. What was Dylan's motivation in revealing the website to Brooks?
ReplyDelete-To show somebody else what was going on and hopefully get some help for eric.
Jake Levin said...
ReplyDeleteI do think that at the beginning they seem like an unlikely team. THey have different personalities, however, they both had dark thoughts. Eric's journal postings show how disturbed he was and Dylan had been thinking of suicide. I think that their plans kept them together. I also think that their personalities kept them together. Dylan needed someone to follow and Eric benefited from someone following him.
I could not agree more with how their personalities kept them together. It is so true that Dylan really relied on Eric, for he had no one else, and Eric gained from Dylan by having an accomplice to help succeed in their dasterdly deeds.
- i agree with ya, their personalities kept the together. both gained from each other that and helped them do perform this act together.
ELizabeth said...
ReplyDeleteI agree that the NRA should have reschedualed their conference in Denver. It was unnecessary to hold the conference at that time and they could have reschedualed. I think it was very disrespectful to the families and friends that lost a loved one in the shooting. They should have been more considerate and just reschedualed.
- Most def. they should have rescheduled the rally, It was incentive for them to be there and it looked like they were spitting on their faces.
Chanan said...
ReplyDeleteI feel that the tone of this chapter is very positive towards Jesus. They are optimistic that He will help them in this time of tragedy. I feel like this attitude is mostly respectable to the people who were killed in the shooting.I feel like they are turning to Jesus only in a time of need. Not many are praising Him.
- i agree it is a very positive tone toward jesus, sadly thats how most people are they turn to god when only in need which is good but not everyone constantly praises him for his glory and grace, it was to me his grace that the bombs did not go off, only 12 died and not 2000.
Stuart said...
ReplyDeleteThe values a musicin represents may not always be tied to their music. No musicians sing tunes musing on the possibilty of mass murder. Not even violence. The beats may be violent or loud, but in no way should music spark murderous rage. Movies on the other hand include tons of violence and can be interpreted as contributing to the problems in society today
- i agree with you entirely, no song is specifically saying go kill everyone in your school. Movies can be very graphic but then again thats why there are ratings on movies and that should help regulate what people are watching.
Shelby Dover said...
ReplyDeleteI don't think that Eric and Dylan were completely sane. A sane person would not create bombs to blow up a school or shoot people. I don't think that Cullen has given us enough information about psychopathy to make our own conclusions about whether Eric was a psychopath or not.
_ i agree with you, they were definitely were not sane, even though they were ok on the outside on the inside they were twisted.
sammie k said...
ReplyDelete‘Jesus Jesus Jesus’ presents one belief in particular that piques my interest: Pastor
Kristen says, “Pack that arc with as many people as possible” (178). I find that the
church was correct in welcoming the multitudes, but needed to make sure their
motives were correct. Saving souls for a tally on the chalkboard subtracts meaning;
sincerity is vital. Cassie’s Bernall’s story was an inspiration, but it was used in part
as a guilt trip, saying Cassie had been ready, are you ready? The community did
the same thing as with Danny Rohrbrough’s death – tried to add meaning. It helped
some cope, and it was a shame that it turned out never to have occurred.
-I feel exactly the same way! I think that it is a lovely story, and it is sad that it wasn't true. Like Danny's death, Cassie's death wasn't any less meaningful simply because she didn't have a made-for-a-movie like scene where she had a dramatic heroic ending. I think the church should provide comfort without making it an opportunity to convert as many as possible. They should provide solace and a shoulder to lean on, giving a prime example of the ideal good Christian.
Jason Wani said...
ReplyDelete-absolutely, yes they had the "right" to be there but that doesn't mean they should. It was not right people were still trying to heal, just because people have the right to do something, doesnt mean they should
-I feel exactly the same way. As strongly as I feel about our personal liberties and rights, I think it is our own responsibility to use good judgement when we exercise our rights.
Jordanna said...
ReplyDelete-Yes, they seem like an unlike pair to me. They tend to not really do the same things and believe the same. Yes, they were bpth depressive, but Eric was on a much deeper level than he was. I think the glue that kept them together was the fact that they were both lonely. They were there for each other, and that is what held them together. Yes, he felt contempt. He saw him and Dylan as actual humans, but I don't think Eric felt enough contempt. He did anything to get himself out of trouble, even if it was to make Dylan take the blame.
-I think that Dylan was so desperate for any type of relation to a human that he settled for Eric, who probably used his charisma to form a "friendship" (I don't think Eric really felt an emotional attachment to Dylan, so for Eric, I don't think it was a real friendship) because he saw Dylan's explosive personality and extreme depression and realized he could exploit it for his plan of mass destruction. I don't think Dylan understood that Eric was a psychopath, and he didn't realize how much he was really being manipulated.
sammie k said...
ReplyDeleteWhile I disagree about the psychopathy of Eric, and think he just handled his emotions/situation immaturely, I support your claims about Dylan. I think that yes, Eric was the major reason for Dylan's choice of homicide.
-I disagree, I think that Eric is 100% without-a-doubt a psychopath. He has all of the characteristics, and there is left little room to infer any of those characteristics just based on his actions. Since Eric documents his thoughts and viewpoints so accurately, I think he is a simple case of a psychopath to diagnose.
8. Many people, including Michael Moore in 'Bowling for Columbine,' thought the NRA should have rescheduled their conference in Denver. What do you think?
ReplyDeleteIn respect for those who were grieving the tragedy, I think that the NRA should have at least rescheduled their rally. To those most affected, a pro-gun rally not long after this tragic shooting would feel almost like a stab in the back. The NRA was just defending the right to have guns, but they chose the wrong time and place to do so.
Jason Rodencal said...
ReplyDeleteI like this- you make a good point. It's easy to blame multiple different sources, but what I liked best was you talking about the suppression of individual rights. Lots of people talk about how much better off we'd be if we got rid of our violent culture, but if the government tried to monitor what we showed on tv, people would riot in the streets. If you have an issue with violent culture, just don't expose your kids to it. It's very easy to raise your kids away from TV, and don't let them play the violent video games.
I feel the same exact way! It should be the parent's choice whether to allow their children to watch violent tv or play violent games. It varies from child to child as to how they perceive it, and the parents know their children best and should be the ones to decide exactly what they can and can't watch. I've seen plenty of violent television, and I take great pride in saying I have no evil or psychopathic tendencies. Besides, Eric was born with that condition, and it didn't develop from watching violent tv. It's not up to the government to censor what we watch, that would be a violation of our rights. The same principle could be applied to several current events today. Government controlling the sale of soda because it's unhealthy...I don't exactly drink a lot of soda, but I'm not about to let the government tell me I can't have a coke when I want to because they don't want me to be unhealthy. My health is none of their business, they're here to protect my rights and freedom to make decisions, not take them away.
9. Even while he was entering diversion Eric had a website up which threatened to kill people. Dylan brought it to the attention of Brooks Brown. What was Dylan's motivation in revealing the website to Brooks?
ReplyDeleteDylan gave Brooks the URL to Eric's website so that Eric (and possibly Dylan too) would be thrown in prison. He knew that Brooks would tell his parents and then they would alert the cops. Even though this did happen, Eric and Dylan were still sent to the Diversion program and not prison.
1. How do you feel about the tone of the chapter 'Jesus Jesus Jesus'? Is it suitably respectful to the religious beliefs of the people in Columbine in their reaction to the attacks? Is it analytical enough of the beliefs?
ReplyDeleteThe tone in ‘Jesus Jesus Jesus’ is uplifting. The tone satisfies the religious beliefs of the people of Columbine because they are faithful in God. Their reaction to the attacks is optimistic. In clarifying Cassie Bernall as a martyr, they are able to pull a positive message out of the Columbine shooting. The beliefs of the people of Littleton and the tone Cullen conveys go hand-in-hand.
3. At the beginning of 'Good-bye' we learn more about Dylan's belief system and Eric's expressions of hate on his website. Given the disparity between their beliefs do they seem to be an unlikely team to you? What do you think was the 'glue' that held their relationship together, given the differences? As Eric expressed hate for so many people and Fuselier saw that as contempt do you think that Eric felt contempt for Dylan?
ReplyDeleteDylan and Eric’s contrasting ideas portray them as an unlikely team. Dylan is lost in thought, attempting to discover his existence while Eric constantly expresses his hatred toward inferiors. However, the last sentence of this section effectively sums up the relationship of the two, “Dylan Klebold was not a man of action. He was conscripted by a boy [Eric] who was.” Dylan’s constant thoughts of suicide and self-inflicted anger led to a “vengeful suicide” which Cullen explains. He is prepared to seek revenge on everyone because in his eyes, everyone has caused him trouble on way or another. Although Dylan has these gruesome thoughts, only someone like Eric can actually commence in the action. In a broad sense, Dylan is the brains and Eric, the muscle. Also, Eric did not feel contempt for Dylan because he did not view him as an inferior. Though Dylan was shy, Eric realized that he had potential and was different, in a way, spiritually exiled from society.
4. Eric's website (complete with bomb instructions) was reported to the police on August 7, 1997. Does this seem like a place where Eric's eventual plans could have been stopped? Why do you think that this violent information seems to have been ignored and wasn't followed up on? Do you feel like the police should have been held responsible for not following through more thoroughly?
ReplyDeleteTaking action toward the bomb instructions on Eric’s website may have not necessarily stopped him from his eventual plans, depending on what action would be taken. Yet, it could have discouraged him to follow through with his plans. For instance, if the information was not ignored and Eric was ordered to be heavily supervised for a year or so, Columbine would have never happened. If he was simply prevented from adding the bomb instructions to his website, he most likely would have added them to his journal. The police officer undermined the situation, and not wanting to blow anything out of proportion, he ignored the pipe bombs. Perhaps he is always referred to instances like this where a teenager is just in need of attention. Nevertheless, the officer failed to do his job. In a sense, he handed the lives of those in Columbine to Eric and Dylan.
5. 'Good-bye' has the first musing of Fuselier regarding Dylan and Eric's sanity. Given what you read here do you feel that they were sane? Do you think Cullen has presented enough information about psychopathy at this point in the book to allow the audience to make a decision regarding whether or not Eric is a psychopath?
ReplyDeleteEric Harris and Dylan Klebold are definitely sane. Cullen’s accurate recall to their past do not invoke any assumptions of insanity. Cullen expresses Dylan’s case well, implying that his depression led to his part in the Columbine shooting. Dylan’s participation can best be described as a mindless act encouraged by self-inflicted anger and eagerness to achieve his existence by undertaking his afterlife. With the limited knowledge of psychopathy that Cullen explains, Dylan or Eric does not fit the description. Instead, he is a youth filled with hatred and willing to express it through the physical punishment of others.
10. Do you think that things have changed since Columbine regarding online threats - or do you think that this sort of thing could be posted on a website now without consequences? (Think about the recent cyber-bullying suicides like Tyler Clementi and Phoebe Prince reported in the media).
ReplyDeleteOnline danger is definitely more prevalent than it was since Columbine. There are thousands of blog sites and social networks that provide a means to harass people. This form of verbal harassment may not be taken seriously, yet it is a very serious matter. For it can result in suicides like Tyler Clementi and Phoebe Prince. Threatening remarks over the Internet are far too common to be given punishment. Our society today is much more aggressive and therefore, we pay less attention to petty misdeeds like cyber-bullying.
3. At the beginning of 'Good-bye' we learn more about Dylan's belief system and Eric's expressions of hate on his website. Given the disparity between their beliefs do they seem to be an unlikely team to you? What do you think was the 'glue' that held their relationship together, given the differences? As Eric expressed hate for so many people and Fuselier saw that as contempt do you think that Eric felt contempt for Dylan?
ReplyDeleteEric and Dylan seem to be, no doubt, quite different in their views and actions. Dylan was more timid and less-homicidal than Eric. I think that it was their interests in fire arms/bombs, Eric's influential drive, and being the only two left of their "threesome" that kept their friendship. Eric probably felt some contempt for Dylan, but since Dylan was the only good friend who he could create mischeif with, Eric probably just did not express it.
4. Eric's website (complete with bomb instructions) was reported to the police on August 7, 1997. Does this seem like a place where Eric's eventual plans could have been stopped? Why do you think that this violent information seems to have been ignored and wasn't followed up on? Do you feel like the police should have been held responsible for not following through more thoroughly?
ReplyDeleteSince a criminal record for Eric was filed at this point, his future plans could have been avoided. However, if all the police were to do was just to inform his parents and other little actions, I don't think that his plans would have been prevented from happening. Perhaps since most teenagers are known to have "hormonal issues" and raging emotions, this was probably overlooked as just one of those instances. It's not too uncommon now to hear someone say "I'm going to kill you!" and only be joking about it. The police could have prevented serious violence in the future, but I do not think they were completely at fault for misreading Eric's threats.
sammie k said...
ReplyDelete“Had the police taken the situation more seriously, Eric could have been stopped. I
think the police viewed the one reporting it, Judy Brown, as an overreacting mother
that was a nuisance. Her continued badgering of the law made her fear of Eric
seem like more of a personal issue, hence the lackadaisical police response. It was
justified.”
- I agree. The police made a big mistake in overlooking the situation. They could have prevented Eric from committing any murders thus, preventing Columbine. However, the police officers reason for ignoring the bomb instructions was justified; he believed Judy Brown was overreacting.
10. Do you think that things have changed since Columbine regarding online threats - or do you think that this sort of thing could be posted on a website now without consequences? (Think about the recent cyber-bullying suicides like Tyler Clementi and Phoebe Prince reported in the media).
ReplyDeleteThings have changed, but not necessarily in a positive fashion. Online threats are actually more common and easily discoverable nowadays. However, since everyone has the capability of being mean/making threats to one another (even in a joking manner), punishment is not always given to anyone making cyber threats. In more serious cases such as Tyler Clementi and Phoebe Prince where the bullying resulted in their suicides, punishment was suddenly an option that was taken up. Schools make more of an effort to make sure that students are aware of bullying and its consequences, but those measures are not too likely to successfully end bullying.
Jason Wani said...
ReplyDelete-To show somebody else what was going on and hopefully get some help for eric.
I agree with you on the fact that Dylan did want someone to know what Eric was posting on his website. However, I don't necessarily agree with that meaning that he wanted it to result in getting help for Eric. The book says that Dylan was thinking that "Eric would be rejected [from the Diversion program] and imprisoned for a felony. [He] probably would be, too." Because of that, I think that he rather was risking his own freedom just to get Eric simply sent to prison.
Lucus said...
ReplyDeleteOnline danger is definitely more prevalent than it was since Columbine. There are thousands of blog sites and social networks that provide a means to harass people. This form of verbal harassment may not be taken seriously, yet it is a very serious matter. For it can result in suicides like Tyler Clementi and Phoebe Prince. Threatening remarks over the Internet are far too common to be given punishment. Our society today is much more aggressive and therefore, we pay less attention to petty misdeeds like cyber-bullying.
I completely agree with you. Cyber-threats/bullying is way too common in our era. We do tend to be more insensitive toward others and ignorant toward signs of bullying so we "fit in," which explains why there are still problems with cyber-bullying.
Chanan said...
ReplyDelete“I feel that the tone of this chapter is very positive towards Jesus. They are optimistic that He will help them in this time of tragedy. I feel like this attitude is mostly respectable to the people who were killed in the shooting.I feel like they are turning to Jesus only in a time of need. Not many are praising Him. “
- The tone in this chapter is very optimistic and uplifting. After this tragedy, their religious beliefs strengthen drastically. They make faith in God a priority only when they believe they are in need of Him. The tone compliments those that were killed in the shooting by mentioning them as martyrs and showing how they portrayed the importance of a strong belief in God.
sammie k said...
ReplyDelete‘Jesus Jesus Jesus’ presents one belief in particular that piques my interest: Pastor
Kristen says, “Pack that arc with as many people as possible” (178). I find that the
church was correct in welcoming the multitudes, but needed to make sure their
motives were correct. Saving souls for a tally on the chalkboard subtracts meaning;
sincerity is vital. Cassie’s Bernall’s story was an inspiration, but it was used in part
as a guilt trip, saying Cassie had been ready, are you ready? The community did
the same thing as with Danny Rohrbrough’s death – tried to add meaning. It helped
some cope, and it was a shame that it turned out never to have occurred.
I concur! The church created a very similar (situation?) to Danny's death by giving false purpose to Cassie's death. It seems as though the motive there was to just convince those attending the service that Cassie was a icon whose faith needed to be followed in order to be accepted by Jesus. It was almost the exact same as peer pressure in schools; you want to be accepted? Do as this person did and you will be accepted. It's not the kind of message most churches would encourage, especially if it was not known as an absolute fact that was known/proven as true.
Jasmine said...
ReplyDelete“In respect for those who were grieving the tragedy, I think that the NRA should have at least rescheduled their rally. To those most affected, a pro-gun rally not long after this tragic shooting would feel almost like a stab in the back. The NRA was just defending the right to have guns, but they chose the wrong time and place to do so.”
- Yes, it would have been necessary for the NRA to postpone their rally. Their conference held shortly after the Columbine accident disgraced everyone that was affected by the ordeal. They were promoting the use of guns, the same weapons that Eric and Dylan used to injure and murder innocent people. The NRA’s conference held in Littleton was coincidental but could have been prevented.
Stuart said...
ReplyDeleteThe idea to hold a pro-gun conference in Littleton was a complete disgrace to th efamilies of the victims. If the gun rally had been months or years later, the story would be different, but in this case the NRA was just being a group of ignorant blockheads.
I feel the same way about their rally. It was a stab in the backs of those affected by Columbine for the NRA to hold a pro-gun conference right after such a devastating shooting. The NRA could have waited a few weeks/months as you said, giving some recovery time and showing respect to all of the victims.
Jordanna said...
ReplyDelete“Yes, they seem like an unlike pair to me. They tend to not really do the same things and believe the same. Yes, they were bpth depressive, but Eric was on a much deeper level than he was. I think the glue that kept them together was the fact that they were both lonely. They were there for each other, and that is what held them together. Yes, he felt contempt. He saw him and Dylan as actual humans, but I don't think Eric felt enough contempt. He did anything to get himself out of trouble, even if it was to make Dylan take the blame.”
- Eric and Dylan have different views. This makes them seem like an unlikely pair. I believe they were held together by their share of loneliness and Dylan’s need of someone that could commence in the actions that he thought about. However, I don’t think Eric expressed contempt toward Dylan because he did not see him as inferior.
Stuart said...
ReplyDelete“I believe that cyber-bullying has only gotten worse since Columbine. With Facebook and Formspring, words, rather than actions, can spark overreactions. This sort of thing is stroongly looked down upon, but can also be considered a crime. Cyber bullying is no laughing matter.”
- I definitely agree with you, Stuart. Websites such as Facebook and Formspring provide a much easier means to harass people. This is why cyber-bullying is much more common today. The verbal harassment can take severe effects on people. I believe that there should be a greater focus on cyber-bullying since some people have resulted in suicide.
Jake Levin said...
ReplyDeleteI do think that at the beginning they seem like an unlikely team. THey have different personalities, however, they both had dark thoughts. Eric's journal postings show how disturbed he was and Dylan had been thinking of suicide. I think that their plans kept them together. I also think that their personalities kept them together. Dylan needed someone to follow and Eric benefited from someone following him.
The two of them are an unlikely team. The two of them did have similarities, for instance, their dark wishes and thoughts. I also agree with you on the fact that it probably was their differences that kept them together. Like some people say, opposites do attract.